Is my username offensive?

[yelped]

Source? I found the "kabbalah" connection, but nothing about the anti-semitic origins (or even use)

What? You didn't find anything about the Jewish Cabal??? "Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

[yuneeq]

What? You didn't find anything about the Jewish Cabal??? "Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Discussing the origins of the word "cabal" being based on "kabbalah", not whether the word has ever been used in reference to Jews.

[yelped]

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Discussing the origins of the word "cabal" being based on "kabbalah", not whether the word has ever been used in reference to Jews.

You wrote that you didn't find a source for the anti-Semitic use of the word 'cabal'.

[yuneeq]

You wrote that you didn't find a source for the anti-Semitic use of the word 'cabal'.

Read again-

Source? I found the "kabbalah" connection, but nothing about the anti-semitic origins (or even use)

I didn't find "kabbalah" originally used in a negative manner, and certainly not in reference to a Jewish cabal.

[yuneeq]

Source? I found the "kabbalah" connection, but nothing about the anti-semitic origins (or even use)

Let me make this clearer.

"Kabbalah" is known as both mystical and secret. Later on it evolved into the word "cabal". And later on the word "cabal" evolved into meaning a secret and powerful small group. And even later on, the word "cabal" was used by antisemites attacking the "Jewish cabal".

So no, that doesn't mean that the word "kabbalah", or even the word "cabal" was invented to describe a "secret powerful Jewish group".

[dm123]

OT, I recently learned that the word 'cabal' is antisemitic in origin.

Were these 5 Jewish?

Cabal (act. 1667–1673), politicians, comprised five individuals prominent in the councils of Charles II. These were Thomas Clifford, first Baron Clifford of Chudleigh, Anthony Ashley Cooper, first earl of Shaftesbury, George Villiers, second duke of Buckingham, Henry Bennet, first earl of Arlington, and John Maitland, duke of Lauderdale.

[yelped]

Let me make this clearer.

"Kabbalah" is known as both mystical and secret. Later on it evolved into the word "cabal". And later on the word "cabal" evolved into meaning a secret and powerful small group. And even later on, the word "cabal" was used by antisemites attacking the "Jewish cabal".

So no, that doesn't mean that the word "kabbalah", or even the word "cabal" was invented to describe a "secret powerful Jewish group".

I hear. I was referring to what you wrote regarding the use.

[wayfe]

"Kabbalah" is known as both mystical and secret. Later on it evolved into the word "cabal". And later on the word "cabal" evolved into meaning a secret and powerful small group. And even later on, the word "cabal" was used by antisemites attacking the "Jewish cabal".

Why do you think the word cabal ever had any neutral meaning?

I think the fact that the word for the pious study of the hidden secrets of the Torah inspired the word for a secret group plotting to control the world is evidence enough of antisemitism.

[yuneeq]

OT, I recently learned that the word 'cabal' is antisemitic in origin. Based off the word "Kabbalah" with connotations of secret groups plotting to control the world through unnatural/mystical means.

Why do you think the word cabal ever had any neutral meaning?

I think the fact that the word for the pious study of the hidden secrets of the Torah inspired the word for a secret group plotting to control the world is evidence enough of antisemitism.

Let me get this straight. It must be antisemitic because why would it not be antisemitic?

[dm123]

Let me get this straight. It must be antisemitic because why would it not be antisemitic?

I understood that wayfe meant that people's usage of cabal from kabbala to refer to insidious clandestine meetings infers its anti-Semitic origin.

To me it seems cabal just meant secret group meeting based on kabbala's "secret" transmission process and only got its negative connotations from the English cabinet in the 1600's, so not anti-Semitic origins, and used anti-Semitically in the "Jewish Cabal" Protocols sense.

[wayfe]

I understood that wayfe meant that people's usage of cabal from kabbala to refer to insidious clandestine meetings infers its anti-Semitic origin.

To me it seems cabal just meant secret group meeting based on kabbala's "secret" transmission process and only got its negative connotations from the English cabinet in the 1600's, so not anti-Semitic origins, and used anti-Semitically in the "Jewish Cabal" Protocols sense.

The word never had a neutral meaning. Its first use outside of its Hebrew origin already painted the picture of a scheming, secret group. Emphasis on the 'scheming', as much as the 'secret'.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Cabal

The English cabinet acronym story is cute, but probably not factual.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/7-false-etymologies/cabal

Let me get this straight. It must be antisemitic because why would it not be antisemitic?

That is not what I said.

In my mind, taking a Jewish word and twisting it to create a new word with an insidious meaning, all while playing into (or possibly even inventing) a common antisemitic Jewish trope is a clear illustration of the word's antisemitic intent.

If you need an official ADL declaration to make you see it, I can't help you.

[wayfe]

If you like the nitty-gritty:

Google translate screenshots of a page on the etymology of the word 'cabale' (French origin of the English word 'cabal') in French.
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cabale

To be clear the emphasis is not mine (aside for the highlight in the 3rd screenshot).

Here is the direct relationship to the Hebrew word קבלה:


As soon as the word evolves, there is a negative, scheming, plotting connotation:

[dm123]

The word never had a neutral meaning. Its first use outside of its Hebrew origin already painted the picture of a scheming, secret group. Emphasis on the 'scheming', as much as the 'secret'.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Cabal

The English cabinet acronym story is cute, but probably not factual.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/7-false-etymologies/cabal

Which link is proving which statement? The links you provided seem to have a gap between kabbala=cabal and then cabal=insidious plotters.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/7-false-etymologies/cabal cabal in english from the 16th century and plotting in mid 17th:

However, cabal is not an acronym; it comes from the Late Hebrew qabbālāh, meaning “received (lore),” and has been in use in English since the 16th century, well before Charles II came to the throne. The initial meaning of the word was concerned with Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament, and the sense relating to plotters emerged in the middle of the 17th century.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Cabal sinister connotations from the myth, whether true or not it's a step removed from kabbala:

1520s, "mystical interpretation of the Old Testament," later "an intriguing society, a small group meeting privately" (1660s), from French cabal, which had both senses, from Medieval Latin cabbala (see cabbala). Popularized in English 1673 as an acronym for five intriguing ministers of Charles II (Clifford, Arlington, Buckingham, Ashley, and Lauderdale), which gave the word its sinister connotations.

The link I originally posted attributes it to English politics, not antisemitism.
https://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-93697:

The association of all five as a single administration or ministry called the Cabal is inaccurate, but it is rooted in the realities of Restoration politics and the myth-making of historians.

[wayfe]

@dm123

The English word evolved from French, which included both meanings (Kabbalah & conniving secret group)

Usage in English and whatever relation to British govt. comes later.

And from https://www.etymonline.com/word/Cabal

1520s, "mystical interpretation of the Old Testament," later "an intriguing society, a small group meeting privately" (1660s), from French cabal, which had both senses, from Medieval Latin cabbala (see cabbala). Popularized in English 1673 as an acronym for five intriguing ministers of Charles II (Clifford, Arlington, Buckingham, Ashley, and Lauderdale), which gave the word its sinister connotations.

"An intriguing society, a small group meeting privately" does not mean a secret sourdough baker's club.

[yuneeq]

The word never had a neutral meaning. Its first use outside of its Hebrew origin already painted the picture of a scheming, secret group. Emphasis on the 'scheming', as much as the 'secret'.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Cabal

The English cabinet acronym story is cute, but probably not factual.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/7-false-etymologies/cabal

That is not what I said.

In my mind, taking a Jewish word and twisting it to create a new word with an insidious meaning, all while playing into (or possibly even inventing) a common antisemitic Jewish trope is a clear illustration of the word's antisemitic intent.

If you need an official ADL declaration to make you see it, I can't help you.

I don’t need an official ADL declaration, however the AJC explicitly says it’s not antisemitic in origin https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/cabal

What would be nice though, is if either of the links you provided mentions anything that you purported it to. But in fact they both claim that the word evolved over time, and well before the Jewish cabal was a thing.

And yes, the English ministers popularizing the cabal is a well established fact, which may explain why every reputable site mentions it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal_ministry

[wayfe]

But in fact they both claim that the word evolved over time, and well before the Jewish cabal was a thing.

How do you know when exactly the trope emerged?

Regardless, every single source says that the English 'cabal' originated from the French 'cabale'.

[dm123]

@dm123

The English word evolved from French, which included both meanings (Kabbalah & conniving secret group)

Usage in English and whatever relation to British govt. comes later.

Check the dates on the link you posted above.

In French it meant "secret maneuvers" (doesn't necessarily seem inherently devious to me) in 1546.

ETYMOL. AND HIST. − 1. 1532 “doctrine, transmitted tradition” ( Rabelais , Pantagruel, Prologue, ed. Marty-Laveaux, t. 1, p. 215); 1611 to own "Jewish interpretation of the OT" ( Cotgr. ); 2. 1546 "occult science" ( Palmerin d'Olive, 39b after Vaganay in Rom. Forsch., t. 32, p. 21); 3. 1546 “secret manoeuvres” ( Rabelais , Tiers Livre, ed. Marty-Laveaux, t. 2, p. 78: monastic cabal ). Empr. to Hebrew. qabbāla “received tradition, esoteric doctrine”, from the verb qibbel “to receive by tradition” (v.Devic ).

The earliest sinister usage in French on the link you posted is 1830, well after the Restoration Era usage would have taken hold and migrated to France:

II.− [P. ref. to the secrecy that surrounds the speculations of those who devote themselves to this form of occultism] Secret intrigue hatched against someone, to affect him in his reputation, his actions or his works. The first thing that is organized (...) are discords, jealousies, intrigues, cabals of all kinds ( Fourier , Le Nouv. monde industr., 1830 , p. 26):

ETA: the etymonline link says the "intriguing" (if that indeed means nefarious, I'm not convinced) use (1660's) was over a century after the Kabbala use (1520's).

[Lurker]

In short, OP's name isn't offensive unless you're not Jewish, so to satisfy the woke masses, he should change his name to PonderingCabalite.

[CountValentine]

Who was the group that complained about the name? You think it was non-Jews?

[Lurker]

Who was the group that complained about the name? You think it was non-Jews?

99.99% likely not Jewish.