Poll

Do you still support Trump?

I would vote for him in a Republican Primary
3 (6.4%)
I would not support him in a Republican Primary, but I would vote for him in a General Election if he was the nominee (regardless of who the Democrat nominee is)
18 (38.3%)
I would not support him in a Republican Primary, but I may vote for him in a General Election (if I really don't like the Democrat nominee)
22 (46.8%)
I would vote for the Democrat Party candidate in the General if Trump was the Republican nominee
4 (8.5%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition  (Read 5827 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2022, 10:24:31 AM »
The yeshivish take: Someone just needs to ask a godol if this is the proper hishtadlus.
Oh, wait...

I thought of responding to @zh cohen above mentioning metaphysics, but opted for what seemed easier to explain.
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Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2022, 11:05:48 AM »
I thought of responding to @zh cohen above mentioning metaphysics, but opted for what seemed easier to explain.
The thread was indeed begging to have this brought in. I refrained until I realized that my quote from Levitt had this as the only counterpoint, so I said so.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2022, 12:11:35 PM »
Levitt’s point of comparing the Swiss mail voting to hypothetical internet voting might be apples to oranges. How much interaction with mail did people from small villages have, vs. the proliferation of internet in this country. Also, how difficult/costly was it for them to incrementally add another letter to their mail vs. someone active on the internet clicking a button in an internet poll?
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Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2022, 12:14:24 PM »
Levitt’s point of comparing the Swiss mail voting to hypothetical internet voting might be apples to oranges. How much interaction with mail did people from small villages have, vs. the proliferation of internet in this country. Also, how difficult/costly was it for them to incrementally add another letter to their mail vs. someone active on the internet clicking a button in an internet poll?
That was someone else's study, actually, which he quoted. The point relevant to us was that there seems to be no point in voting. I agree with you regarding this comparison - it does seem a bit of a stretch. Maybe it seemed more relevant when it was written, but in today's environment, it seems very off.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2022, 12:17:02 PM »
As for the value of votes in NY or California:

If voter turnout in those states dropped precipitously then a bigger percentage of eligible voters would be swing voters and those states would be swing states.

This doesn’t address current turnout, but proliferating a mindset that your-vote-doesn’t-count-so-don’t-bother-going-to-vote could lower those turnout numbers significantly, and IINM potentially turn such a state into a swing state.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2022, 12:17:25 PM »
That was someone else's study, actually, which he quoted. The point relevant to us was that there seems to be no point in voting. I agree with you regarding this comparison - it does seem a bit of a stretch. Maybe it seemed more relevant when it was written, but in today's environment, it seems very off.

tbh it was too long and I didn’t read to the bottom lol
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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2022, 12:19:30 PM »
That was someone else's study, actually, which he quoted. The point relevant to us was that there seems to be no point in voting.
If we don't vote how do we decide who runs everything? 
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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2022, 12:23:00 PM »
This doesn’t address current turnout, but proliferating a mindset that your-vote-doesn’t-count-so-don’t-bother-going-to-vote could lower those turnout numbers significantly, and IINM potentially turn such a state into a swing state.
Wouldn't the opposite be more probable? Less turnout would be from the loser, no? That would make the state less of a swing vote.

I guess this would be based on if someone is more likely to turn out for a winner than a loser.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2022, 12:24:31 PM »
If we don't vote how do we decide who runs everything? 

I don’t think it’s a pretzel to say that while the current voting system implements the democratic imperative for “the voice of the people” being heard, in some elections my voice would be so drowned out due to the extreme partisan disparity in my state and whether I’m voting red or blue nothing would change if I made the personal choice to stay home.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2022, 12:27:09 PM »
Wouldn't the opposite be more probable? Less turnout would be from the loser, no? That would make the state less of a swing vote.

I guess this would be based on if someone is more likely to turn out for a winner than a loser.

Let’s take an extreme example for illustration:

Let’s say 10 people turn out to vote in all of NY state, 7 blue and 3 red. Then a single swing voter that votes red has a significant impact on the elections.
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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2022, 12:46:36 PM »
Let’s take an extreme example for illustration:

Let’s say 10 people turn out to vote in all of NY state, 7 blue and 3 red. Then a single swing voter that votes red has a significant impact on the elections.
Can this also happen?

The three red decide next time they have to chance so decide to sit out. Now it is 7-0 so a self-fulling prophecy.
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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2022, 12:48:20 PM »
I don’t think it’s a pretzel to say that while the current voting system implements the democratic imperative for “the voice of the people” being heard, in some elections my voice would be so drowned out due to the extreme partisan disparity in my state and whether I’m voting red or blue nothing would change if I made the personal choice to stay home.
I look at it as the partisan votes cancel each other out so that makes my vote/voice even more important.
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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2022, 12:50:04 PM »
Can this also happen?

The three red decide next time they have to chance so decide to sit out. Now it is 7-0 so a self-fulling prophecy.

No because my presumption is that the majority and minority voters have equal reason to believe they don’t matter because of the position of the party they vote for.

“My party will win anyway” vs. “my party will lose anyway” is equally compelling to me.
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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2022, 12:52:03 PM »
No because my presumption is that the majority and minority voters have equal reason to believe they don’t matter because of the position of the party they vote for.

“My party will win anyway” vs. “my party will lose anyway” is equally compelling to me.
Fair enough and that is where I disagree. When I hear my vote doesn't count it is usually if not always from the loser.
People love winning.  ;)
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2022, 12:56:58 PM »
People love winning.  ;)

Sounds like a feeble minded swing voter whom you don’t need to convince to vote for a specific candidate based on their merits. They’ll vote for whomever is leading in the polls and all you have to do is have the polling advantage and convince them to come out and vote and you have their vote in your pocket.

I’d say these aren’t as common as you’re suggesting.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2022, 01:17:38 PM »
Fair enough and that is where I disagree. When I hear my vote doesn't count it is usually if not always from the loser.
People love winning.  ;)

I have been consistent, regardless of who wins.
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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2022, 01:33:22 PM »
I have been consistent, regardless of who wins.
Wasn't directed at you.
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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2022, 02:37:59 PM »
In elections where the average quantity of "I" voters (the count's favorite kind) approaches the average margin of victory, is a 'swing state' and the individual vote counts in the sense that, in aggregate (though not individually), the choice to vote affects the outcome.

Where I voters are considerably below the margin of victory, there are 2 steps needed before the individual vote matters, even in agregate

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #78 on: December 07, 2022, 02:58:33 PM »
As for the value of votes in NY or California:

If voter turnout in those states dropped precipitously then a bigger percentage of eligible voters would be swing voters and those states would be swing states.

This doesn’t address current turnout, but proliferating a mindset that your-vote-doesn’t-count-so-don’t-bother-going-to-vote could lower those turnout numbers significantly, and IINM potentially turn such a state into a swing state.

Which is why voter ID laws and voter suppression is of utmost importance.  :P
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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