Biden's Student Debt Relief Plan

[dm123]

Subsidizing student debt incentivizes student debt.

Generally agree with the sentiment, just pointing out some nuance.

Subsidizing student debt incentivizes education.
Assuming (big assumption I know) that education is productive/useful and not "underwater basket weaving".

student debt is not.

Made me think of the bad Debt vs good debt debate.

in either case it is not fair to have to pay for something you get nothing out of.

Like I said there are hundreds of examples, but we have selective outrage from the right. The left is no better.

Agreed about selective outrage from the right & left.

Although not sure about "something you get nothing out of". Student debt encourages education and by extension a more productive advanced country, and child tax credits encourages larger families/national population which also generally boosts the country, so in both cases the individual paying taxes is gaining.

[S209]

That might all be true or not, but the bottom line is they are giving money away free money and in either case it is not fair to have to pay for something you get nothing out of.

Like I said there are hundreds of examples, but we have selective outrage from the right. The left is no better.

No, that’s not selective outrage, it’s regular outrage. Giving money to people you feel don’t deserve it is worthy of outrage, giving to those you feel are worthy is not.

[avromie7]

Generally agree with the sentiment, just pointing out some nuance.

Subsidizing student debt incentivizes education.
Assuming (big assumption I know) that education is productive/useful and not "underwater basket weaving".

Made me think of the bad Debt vs good debt debate.


Agreed about selective outrage from the right & left.

Although not sure about "something you get nothing out of". Student debt encourages education and by extension a more productive advanced country, and child tax credits encourages larger families/national population which also generally boosts the country, so in both cases the individual paying taxes is gaining.

To some degree I'm sure this is true, however, I don't think free money has a material increase in education. It does have a material increase in borrowing and tuition costs. It's not a coincidence that college tuition increased at a rate way outpacing inflation. Easy access to money without the experience to understand the repercussions is definitely to blame.

[S209]

To some degree I'm sure this is true, however, I don't think free money has a material increase in education. It does have a material increase in borrowing and tuition costs. It's not a coincidence that college tuition increased at a rate way outpacing inflation. Easy access to money without the experience to understand the repercussions is definitely to blame.

On the flip side college is totally free in some countries and there’s definitely an argument to be made that more educated people is always better for the economy. We agree this is true for K-12 and to some extent for pre-K so it’s not such a stretch to extend it to college. The government already foots a very large percentage of the national college bill.

The main question is how to stop costs from ballooning out of control as it tends to do when the government takes control. This is also my main concern with nationalized health care and a huge problem with our public school system.

[Ver hut gazugt]

To some degree I'm sure this is true, however, I don't think free money has a material increase in education. It does have a material increase in borrowing and tuition costs. It's not a coincidence that college tuition increased at a rate way outpacing inflation. Easy access to money without the experience to understand the repercussions is definitely to blame.

to your point. It still makes no sense to me why tuition for collage is so expensive. Professors wages have not gone up that much.

[avromie7]

On the flip side college is totally free in some countries and there’s definitely an argument to be made that more educated people is always better for the economy. We agree this is true for K-12 and to some extent for pre-K so it’s not such a stretch to extend it to college. The government already foots a very large percentage of the national college bill.

The main question is how to stop costs from ballooning out of control as it tends to do when the government takes control. This is also my main concern with nationalized health care and a huge problem with our public school system.

For college, there can be a formula limiting federal funding to schools with tuition below the threshold. I don't think that can work for healthcare. Of course, we decided to pour gasoline on the fire instead of trying to solve this issue.

[Ver hut gazugt]

On the flip side college is totally free in some countries and there’s definitely an argument to be made that more educated people is always better for the economy. We agree this is true for K-12 and to some extent for pre-K so it’s not such a stretch to extend it to college. The government already foots a very large percentage of the national college bill.

The main question is how to stop costs from ballooning out of control as it tends to do when the government takes control. This is also my main concern with nationalized health care and a huge problem with our public school system.

to add nuance,  “educated “ people also tend to have less children which is bad for the economy ( i.e japan)

[CountValentine]

No, that’s not selective outrage, it’s regular outrage. Giving money to people you feel don’t deserve it is worthy of outrage, giving to those you feel are worthy is not.

They claim it is not fair. Neither situation is fair. Are they claiming individuals who don't have children and pay state taxes for schools is unfair? This is all a hypocritical smokescreen!!!

Take the 1 trillion tax cut each and you pay off this student debt each year and have 900 billion left each year to give to the working class instead of the fat cats!

[zh cohen]

to your point. It still makes no sense to me why tuition for collage is so expensive. Professors wages have not gone up that much.

They are paying a lot more administrators

[S209]

They claim it is not fair. Neither situation is fair. Are they claiming individuals who don't have children and pay state taxes for schools is unfair? This is all a hypocritical smokescreen!!!

They don’t have a problem taking money from the collective to incentivize (future) behavior with an opportunity available to all to participate in a beneficent act (having children). They do have a problem taking money from the collective to reimburse what they consider negative (past) behavior (going into debt to finance personal education). That’s not hypocritical.

to add nuance,  “educated “ people also tend to have less children which is bad for the economy ( i.e japan)

That’s subtracting nuance, not adding it. Having too many children can also be bad for an economy. More education is nearly universally considered a net positive for an economy.

[CountValentine]

They don’t have a problem taking money from the collective to incentivize (future) behavior with an opportunity available to all to participate in a beneficent act (having children). They do have a problem taking money from the collective to reimburse what they consider negative (past) behavior (going into debt to finance personal education). That’s not hypocritical.

What past negative behavior? They are just making things up like everyone was taking basketweaving courses.
How about all the businesses that got money for free? That was the biggest scam ever. Selective outrage.
The list goes on and on.

[aygart]

They claim it is not fair. Neither situation is fair. Are they claiming individuals who don't have children and pay state taxes for schools is unfair? This is all a hypocritical smokescreen!!!

Take the 1 trillion tax cut each and you pay off this student debt each year and have 900 billion left each year to give to the working class instead of the fat cats!

People who seems to private school paying for public school too is unfair.

[S209]

What past negative behavior? They are just making things up like everyone was taking basketweaving courses.
How about all the businesses that got money for free? That was the biggest scam ever. Selective outrage.
The list goes on and on.

Going into debt

[CountValentine]

Going into debt

Going into debt for a better education is negative behavior?
I would do it for my kids in a heartbeat.

[yuneeq]

The R's are screaming how unfair the student debit relief is. Are they screaming about all the tax credits for children? Isn't that unfair to people without kids? There are a hundred different examples I could give but for some reason I thought the child tax credit would be more fitting. 

How are they comparable? A tax credit is not a free money handout. Your money belongs to you. The government wants you to pay lower taxes on your income due to your circumstances, just like we do for poor people. Handing out free money to college students is literally just that.

To make it more comparable, the equivalent would be if college loan payments were considered an income deduction for tax purposes (ignoring the impact this would have on college tuition prices).

[CountValentine]

How are they comparable?

No matter how you try and frame it or the talking points use to describe it all comes down to the same thing. It is money the government doesn't have and needs to be paid for. You can call it a credit, aid, debt relief or any other name.

That college kid that doesn't have a job and just received the debt relief will be paying for it, your child's tax credit and the 1 trillion dollar a year fat cat tax cut for many years to come and probably the rest of hers/his life. We use the term free money but there is no such thing, and the joke is on all of us.

[yuneeq]

No matter how you try and frame it or the talking points use to describe it all comes down to the same thing. It is money the government doesn't have and needs to be paid for. You can call it a credit, aid, debt relief or any other name.

That college kid that doesn't have a job and just received the debt relief will be paying for it, your child's tax credit and the 1 trillion dollar a year fat cat tax cut for many years to come and probably the rest of hers/his life. We use the term free money but there is no such thing, and the joke is on all of us.

You have an inherent belief that taxes collected are all fully justified, and therefore any tax relief is a gift from the government. But that’s backwards. Taxation is theft. Any tax relief is simply a lack of theft.

And personal debt relief is the exact opposite - it increases the amount the government steals.

[CountValentine]

You have an inherent belief that taxes collected are all fully justified,

Where did I say that?

On the other hand, you believe taxes are theft. 

So now the talking point is taxes are stealing? I am amazed how educated individuals can fool themselves into believing anything.

I wonder if those that are required to give 10% of their income to charity consider it stealing. 

[yuneeq]

Where did I say that?

On the other hand, you believe taxes are theft. 

So now the talking point is taxes are stealing? I am amazed how educated individuals can fool themselves into believing anything.

I wonder if those that are required to give 10% of their income to charity consider it stealing. 

You compared tax relief to a money handout. If in your opinion taxes are not fully justified, then we can agree that the unjustified portion of your tax bill is theft. How else would you describe unjustly taking money from someone?

(10% is a custom, not law)

[CountValentine]

You equivocated tax relief to a money handout. If in your opinion taxes are not fully justified, then we can agree that the unjustified portion of your tax bill is theft. How else would you describe unjustly taking money from someone?

Taxes are necessary for our government to work under our constitution. I do not believe all taxes are fair, but you can put me in the ED/NC/GOON club if I make the jump to they are theft.

Many religions require part of your income to given away and in some cases to them. I am sure some members of various religions feel that is unfair. I would not call them thieves, would you?