Author Topic: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken  (Read 121707 times)

Offline dasmo801

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #360 on: September 05, 2022, 11:19:47 PM »
Yes (although thatís a stira)
Not everything that someone finds reasonable creates a חזקה

Offline Dan

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #361 on: September 05, 2022, 11:21:35 PM »
The point that I'm trying to clarify is this:
As I understand it, when dealing with a frum owned establishment, where the owner has a חזקת כשרות, the role of the hashgocha is really to serve as a back up. מעיקר הדין one can be סומך on the נאמנות  of the owner who is like any other עד אחד. It is for this reason that I don't fault the hashgochos in the Cleveland case or the Monsey case nearly as much as in this case.
Here we are dealing with people with zero נאמנות. As such, absent whatever halacha considers an עדות on the kashrus from an עד כשר the food must be considered non kosher.
Am I worng on these points?
Don't we need to wait and see what went wrong?
If you have an owner that managed to surreptitiously copy the mashgiach's key, who is at fault? And how do you learn from that and prevent it going forward?
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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #362 on: September 05, 2022, 11:22:58 PM »
The point that I'm trying to clarify is this:
As I understand it, when dealing with a frum owned establishment, where the owner has a חזקת כשרות, the role of the hashgocha is really to serve as a back up. מעיקר הדין one can be סומך on the נאמנות  of the owner who is like any other עד אחד. It is for this reason that I don't fault the hashgochos in the Cleveland case or the Monsey case nearly as much as in this case.
Here we are dealing with people with zero נאמנות. As such, absent whatever halacha considers an עדות on the kashrus from an עד כשר the food must be considered non kosher.
Am I worng on these points?

IINM, many hashgachos do not assume any chazaka of kashrus on any owner, Jewish or otherwise. The assumption, backed by many actual cases, is that when money is involved, trust goes out the window. Furthermore, many (most?) Food establishments don't have the owner involved in all (or any) of the day-to-day operations, rendering that chazaka moot.
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Offline free123cc

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #363 on: September 05, 2022, 11:28:41 PM »
There is a Chinese restaurant on coney bet L and M which is called GLATT CONEY, there menu looks very similiar (or is the same) as glatt kosher family. Also one time I asked the cashier who the owner is and she pointed to another guy there (a non Jew). Also they were pretty cheap.

Is this place also owned by this family?


Offline dasmo801

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #364 on: September 05, 2022, 11:28:58 PM »
IINM, many hashgachos do not assume any chazaka of kashrus on any owner, Jewish or otherwise. The assumption, backed by many actual cases, is that when money is involved, trust goes out the window. Furthermore, many (most?) Food establishments don't have the owner involved in all (or any) of the day-to-day operations, rendering that chazaka moot.

Isn't it SOP to rely on a יוצא ונכנס when there is frum owner/operator vs a mashgiach temidi otherwise?

Offline Dan

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #365 on: September 05, 2022, 11:31:24 PM »
There is a Chinese restaurant on coney bet L and M which is called GLATT CONEY, there menu looks very similiar (or is the same) as glatt kosher family. Also one time I asked the cashier who the owner is and she pointed to another guy there (a non Jew). Also they were pretty cheap.

Is this place also owned by this family?
Would make sense. GKF and GC both under the OK.
https://www.ok.org/?page=restaurant-certificate&id=66202
https://www.ok.org/?page=restaurant-certificate&id=42729

NKS is under the Vaad Harabanim of Greater Elizabeth/Rav Elazar M. Teitz
https://www.congregationbeishillel.org/kosher-food.html

Anyone know who owns them and what the family connection is?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2022, 11:34:33 PM by Dan »
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #366 on: September 05, 2022, 11:32:20 PM »
There is a Chinese restaurant on coney bet L and M which is called GLATT CONEY, there menu looks very similiar (or is the same) as glatt kosher family. Also one time I asked the cashier who the owner is and she pointed to another guy there (a non Jew). Also they were pretty cheap.

Is this place also owned by this family?

Thatís what seems to be implied by the WhatsApp chat with OK posted upthread, combined with the comments from the blogspot blog that broke this story.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #367 on: September 05, 2022, 11:34:28 PM »
FYI, spoke to my LOR, and he said that this statement doesn't definitively say that treif was served, but rather there is a chashash. As such, my psak was that since the food was no longer yad tzoledes bo (after 30-40min travel time from the restaurant), any dishes/utensils used do not need to be kashered.

So they DEFINITELY do need to be more clear, if that isn't the case.

I am not qualified to argue with any rav, but if it a matter of interpreting an English statement, I don't see anywhere in the statement that shows any doubt about kashering utensils. In fact, if there was any doubt, they either would say to wait longer or just simply say there's doubt.



And now after reviewing my post, my guess is the wording "it is recommended" is being interpreted as it is not mandatory. Though the end of the paragraph says "[customers] are advised", which is definitely stronger language. Guess it can better be clarified, though my assumption is the quick response says all you need to know.
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #368 on: September 05, 2022, 11:38:30 PM »
Isn't it SOP to rely on a יוצא ונכנס when there is frum owner/operator vs a mashgiach temidi otherwise?

I know that in JNB a mashgiach temidi is always required for meat, no matter the owner.

Sadly, that isn't foolproof either.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #369 on: September 05, 2022, 11:40:48 PM »
The point that I'm trying to clarify is this:
As I understand it, when dealing with a frum owned establishment, where the owner has a חזקת כשרות, the role of the hashgocha is really to serve as a back up. מעיקר הדין one can be סומך on the נאמנות  of the owner who is like any other עד אחד.
This isnít as simple when heís selling you food.

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #370 on: September 05, 2022, 11:41:01 PM »
Isn't it SOP to rely on a יוצא ונכנס when there is frum owner/operator vs a mashgiach temidi otherwise?

I guess it depends on the hashgacha, but I don't believe most agencies follow this.

I know that in JNB a mashgiach temidi is always required for meat, no matter the owner.

This more accurately reflects the current SOP, IME.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #371 on: September 05, 2022, 11:43:20 PM »
Isn't it SOP to rely on a יוצא ונכנס when there is frum owner/operator vs a mashgiach temidi otherwise?

I donít think so. I know many US establishments with Frum owners (who are sometimes נכנס ויוצא themselves) that have a Mashgiach temidi. And I agree with Y57 that:

Sadly, that isn't foolproof either.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #372 on: September 05, 2022, 11:45:54 PM »
I am not qualified to argue with any rav, but if it a matter of interpreting an English statement, I don't see anywhere in the statement that shows any doubt about kashering utensils.
If the food placed on it was hot.

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #373 on: September 05, 2022, 11:46:46 PM »
Part of the question is what do you call a mashgiach tmidi. Many places have a "working mashgiach"
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Offline Dan

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #374 on: September 05, 2022, 11:47:30 PM »
No surprise here, but a contact at the OK tells me that more information will be forthcoming, but they're still investigating so they have nothing more they can share for now.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #375 on: September 05, 2022, 11:48:40 PM »
I am not qualified to argue with any rav, but if it a matter of interpreting an English statement, I don't see anywhere in the statement that shows any doubt about kashering utensils.

Perhaps they are referring to those who reheated the food at home.  Those who ordered takeout probably wouldn't do that, but it was mentioned upthread that it was a popular place to order from for parties/events.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #376 on: September 05, 2022, 11:48:59 PM »
If the food placed on it was hot.

That's fine for personal advice, but the statement is written for everyone, including people that were able to eat the food while still hot, or warmed it up in a microwave/oven.
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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #377 on: September 05, 2022, 11:49:41 PM »
Part of the question is what do you call a mashgiach tmidi. Many places have a "working mashgiach"

The ones that don't usually pay their dedicated mashgiach so little that it's a question as to whether they're actually motivated to do their job correctly. Hashgacha is a messy business.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #378 on: September 05, 2022, 11:50:32 PM »
That's fine for personal advice, but the statement is written for everyone, including people that were able to eat the food while still hot, or warmed it up in a microwave/oven.

Which is why they said to speak to your Rov about applying the psak.

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #379 on: September 05, 2022, 11:50:48 PM »
Would make sense. GKF and GC both under the OK.
https://www.ok.org/?page=restaurant-certificate&id=66202
https://www.ok.org/?page=restaurant-certificate&id=42729

NKS is under the Vaad Harabanim of Greater Elizabeth/Rav Elazar M. Teitz
https://www.congregationbeishillel.org/kosher-food.html

Anyone know who owns them and what the family connection is?

WowÖ.so Iíve been eating lots of trief latelyÖ.at least now it makes sense why my leiv has been so metumtum lately