Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken

[AsherO]

impossible you can't prove it didn't happen. Just lack of proof that it did. So it's a moot point

If you can prove they were ordering and recieiving as much Kosher chicken/meat as they were selling, that’s a good start.

[AsherO]

And the restaurants will always opt for the lower standard hashgocha as long as most people will eat there. The sad reality is that there isn’t a strong customer base seeking exclusively higher standard hashgochas on restaurants to sustain such an endeavor. The thinking usually is, if it’s good for everyone else, has an orthodox Rabbi on it, it’s good for me too.

I stopped short of making this prediction, all I’m saying is it will complicate things for everyone and is likely not a viable/worthwhile solution IMHO

[SamDaMan]

What other tri state restaurants are owned by non jews?

Not that I wouldn't eat there again but I would definitely think twice now.

[imayid2]

What difference does it make if the witness is saying it is kosher or is he is saying that you may rely on it being kosher due to some other rule such as רובא דליתא קמן or some other din?

if you think so (I don’t will explain later) what was your point?

[Lurker]

What other tri state restaurants are owned by non jews?

Not that I wouldn't eat there again but I would definitely think twice now.

I don't really like this sentiment. Most non-Jews I've met in the food industry have good amount of respect for kashrus. They may not understand it very well, but the respect leads them to rely on and follow the hashgacha/mashgiach. I've seen many, many more issues with non-frum or traditional Jewish owners/operators, especially Israelis. The attitude is that the rabbis are on a power trip and, "I'm Jewish, just trust me."

[Yehuda57]

I don't really like this sentiment. Most non-Jews I've met in the food industry have good amount of respect for kashrus. They may not understand it very well, but the respect leads them to rely on and follow the hashgacha/mashgiach. I've seen many, many more issues with non-frum or traditional Jewish owners/operators, especially Israelis. The attitude is that the rabbis are on a power trip and, "I'm Jewish, just trust me."

Spot on. Rabbis are on a power trip/only after the money.

Plus, thinking back to the cases I heard about growing up, every case of flat out fraud - such as purposefully serving treif meat as kosher - was done by a Jew, except for one instance for which I don't recall if they were Jewish or not.

[moko]

What other tri state restaurants are owned by non jews?

Not that I wouldn't eat there again but I would definitely think twice now.

if you come to Boston your outta luck... Either not frum or not Jewish owned for every location

[Lurker]

While I'm on things I don't like... I really don't understand this idea of "ne'emanus." A tiny percentage of food establishments have the owner completely involved and in control of all food-related operations, from purchasing through prep, cooking, and serving, 100% of the time. They are all relying on hired mashgichim to cover the areas and times when they can't be in all places at once. Once that third party is involved, is his ne'emanus based in his first-hand knowledge that everything is 100% ok, or on his trust that the third parties he hired are doing the job right?

ETA: I don't know why any owner would want to be relied upon. People should be more keen to trust an owner who says, "You can trust everything that comes out of my establishment, because look at who I've hired and what I've invested in to ensure that we keep to X standards."

[imayid2]

While I'm on things I don't like... I really don't understand this idea of "ne'emanus." A tiny percentage of food establishments have the owner completely involved and in control of all food-related operations, from purchasing through prep, cooking, and serving, 100% of the time. They are all relying on hired mashgichim to cover the areas and times when they can't be in all places at once. Once that third party is involved, is his ne'emanus based in his first-hand knowledge that everything is 100% ok, or on his trust that the third parties he hired are doing the job right?

The idea being propagated is נאמנות that their hired man is competent.

[WAM]

I don't know why people are being deliberately dense here...

plot twist: @imayid2 is YS 

[Lurker]

The idea being propagated is נאמנות that their hired man is competent.

Hired under whose supervision? If under the owner's, how is he verifying the job being done? If under a supervising agency, then you're not trusting the owner....

[imayid2]

There are only 2 options.
1) The torah allowed us to rely on the hechsher, so nothing wrong was done and it's an ones.
2) We were not allowed to rely on the hechsher therefore something wrong was done so it's not an ones, and likely meizid or karov l'meizid.

I don't see how you can say relying on the hechsher was assur, so the only remaining option is it's an ones. There is no in between.

If you pick up an orange which you had zero obligation to check for insects and after a couple of innocent bites you unfortunately realize you consumed a bunch of insects. Is that an אונס גמור?
Why is there a concept of אין הקב”ה מביא תקלה לצדיקים if it’s in no way considered a takala? Why does the חכמת אדם caution to look at things you eat even if there isn’t any obligation?

[imayid2]

Hired under whose supervision? If under the owner's, how is he verifying the job being done? If under a supervising agency, then you're not trusting the owner....

I agree. The halachik concept falls more neatly into מטהר יינו של עכום.

[avromie7]

While I'm on things I don't like... I really don't understand this idea of "ne'emanus." A tiny percentage of food establishments have the owner completely involved and in control of all food-related operations, from purchasing through prep, cooking, and serving, 100% of the time. They are all relying on hired mashgichim to cover the areas and times when they can't be in all places at once. Once that third party is involved, is his ne'emanus based in his first-hand knowledge that everything is 100% ok, or on his trust that the third parties he hired are doing the job right?

ETA: I don't know why any owner would want to be relied upon. People should be more keen to trust an owner who says, "You can trust everything that comes out of my establishment, because look at who I've hired and what I've invested in to ensure that we keep to X standards."

When I go to my parents house, and eat something my sister made. Whose ne'emanus am I relying on? My mother or my sister? The same answer would apply here, just change mother to owner and sister to employee.

[imayid2]

plot twist: @imayid2 is YS 

Explains some of the hate

[Lurker]

When I go to my parents house, and eat something my sister made. Whose ne'emanus am I relying on? My mother or my sister? The same answer would apply here, just change mother to owner and sister to employee.

Not even a little bit, unless you're referring to a truly small operation, of which a tiny fraction of food establishments would qualify.

[Joel]

What other tri state restaurants are owned by non jews?

Not that I wouldn't eat there again but I would definitely think twice now.

Le Marias

[imayid2]

What difference does it make if the witness is saying it is kosher or is he is saying that you may rely on it being kosher due to some other rule such as רובא דליתא קמן or some other din?

I think it’s similar to the chiluk described here:

I'm sorry if this was addressed but I haven't followed this conversation too closely. What does neemanus have to do with heterim/shitos you don't follow? The guy can have all the neemanus in the world, but if he's not even aware of the issues with OU tuna, wouldn't that call into question whether he follows the rest of the standards you hold?

Because they aren’t telling you directly it’s kosher, their נאמנות hinges on their standard of operation they used to ascertain so. Their standard of operation, would you care to find out about it, might not be up to par for your standards. Sometimes, for anyones.
So for example, you believe them they hired a mashgiach who they feel is competent, however perhaps you should find out what type of mashgichim they are comfortable with.
I’m not saying you’re absolutely required to. Just that this might mitigate the אונס גמור argument. Perhaps it would be a שוגג.

[avromie7]

Not even a little bit, unless you're referring to a truly small operation, of which a tiny fraction of food establishments would qualify.

Someone is "signing off on it" and telling you the food is kosher.

If you give me a tray of food, and I give it to someone else, I can tell them the food is kosher because I can trust you that the food is kosher.

[WAM]

Explains some of the hate

There's no place to hate another חלק אלו-ה ממעל