Author Topic: NY Times vs. Chassidim  (Read 127527 times)

Offline Pony

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Agudath Israel Statement on New York Times’ Attack on Hasidic Community

Agudath Israel of America decries today’s one-sided New York Times hit piece on New York State’s Hasidic community and its educational institutions.
 
The article is riddled with bias, ignoring the vast majority of Hasidic parents – those who cherish their yeshivas – instead citing a minority of people who have rejected the community’s values, and passing them off as representative of the whole. The true viewpoint of the tens of thousands of parents who send their children to Hasidic schools is represented, in part, by the recent historic 350,000 letters during the state’s public comment period, the vast majority of which pleading for no interference with the yeshiva educational system for which they pay and value. Could the New York Times not speak to one of those parents?
 
In this article, everything beautiful is turned ugly. While challenging college classes are lauded in society, our disciplined, rigorous, and intellectually challenging Torah studies are denigrated. Disgusting innuendo abounds. The supposed poverty data, which form the foundation of much of the piece, have been debunked so many times as to become tiresome. And then there are the outright falsehoods, too many to list, being cataloged now by writers, fact-checkers, and defamation lawyers.
 
There are certainly some who have had poor experiences in a yeshiva. But the New York Times has written a piece that could find almost nothing positive in a community that has raised generations of successful entrepreneurs, professionals, and blue-collar workers. Generations of successful human beings – even if success is defined in purely material terms.
 
Hasidic communities are models of safety and commerce, with low crime, suicide, and drug abuse rates. Our communities are focused on pursuits of knowledge, family values, kindness, and service to G-d and to others.
 
We await, in vain, for a New York Times article on that.

Offline Yehuda57

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1) Most of the schools in question are in Brooklyn, not upstate NY.

2) They lump together ALL schools to get to the 1 billion figure, so you can't say they are only speaking about some yeshivas, not painting a picture of all. You can't cut it both ways.

3) I agree he should have waited for the piece to be published, even if only so people wouldn't use that against his arguments.

4) he had every right to say "dig up dirt", they sent a draft of the article to many people they had interviewed for the piece. I can go through the many ways it is clearly a hit piece rather than an honest investigative report another time, but suffice now to mention the laughable mention of a single 911 call over decades and hundreds of thousands of students in the lede and story, the mention of grads turning to alcohol and drugs when Chassidic Jews are so far below societal levels of addiction.

As far as your, "they'll fact check your story", as someone who knows hundreds of graduates of Oholei Torah, the Pape anecdote of him picking up his first English book at 28 is laughable on its face. If both mentions of ch are so far off as to be laugh out loud comical, I can only imagine the rest of the piece that deals with schools I'm not familiar with.

Offline biobook

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You better believe the article is trying to portray the Yeshivos as money-sucking scams. Why the inflated and exaggerated 1B figure? Why not some context?
As I read it, the article is making two points: 
1. Hasidic schools are not providing a secular education. 
2. They are taking money meant to support students in schools that provide a secular education.

Which of those are you saying is untrue?

Quote
It’s interesting that that you believe any mitigating evidence is irrelevant but have no problem with their inclusion of the “girls and pigs” smear and complaints of voter registration drives.
I do have a problem with the "girls and pigs", but I understood that was coming from the yeshivas.  Is that not so?

Offline yesitsme

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@biobook the article wasn't out at the time of posting
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Offline yesitsme

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Looking for a English tutor for 6 year old boy, any leads?
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Offline Yehuda57

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As I read it, the article is making two points: 
1. Hasidic schools are not providing a secular education. 
2. They are taking money meant to support students in schools that provide a secular education.

Which of those are you saying is untrue?
I do have a problem with the "girls and pigs", but I understood that was coming from the yeshivas.  Is that not so?

3. The system traps Chassidim in a life of poverty
4. The schools lead to alcohol and drug abuse.
5. The schools are rife with physical abuse and/or corporal punishment
6. It frames the use of voting in one's communal intrests as a nefarious scheme.

There's more, but I'll stop for now

Offline CountValentine

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Funding for food is from the usda which is a federal program and has nothing to do with the state other that it's is implemented through them
Some if not many states have some form of matching funds. Some students also pay a reduced price.
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Offline S209

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As I read it, the article is making two points: 
1. Hasidic schools are not providing a secular education. 
2. They are taking money meant to support students in schools that provide a secular education.

Which of those are you saying is untrue?

They used an exaggerated sum to insinuate Yeshivos are taking an outsized share of funding. They fail to mention that Yeshivos actually take a minuscule amount of public resources for the education they provide, adequate or otherwise.

Fact-check: misleading and missing context.

I do have a problem with the "girls and pigs", but I understood that was coming from the yeshivas.  Is that not so?
It’s a cherry picked example chosen from one school to denigrate all Yeshivos. Regardless, The NY Times is the party who chose to include it. What does this have to do with their education? Are we just picking on things we don’t like about Chasidim? And what about the voter registration “problem” they chose to protest? Is that another issue with our education?

Methinks you are glossing over some obvious swings at the community as a whole, not a focus on legitimate problems that should be addressed (by working with the community, not against them).
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Offline CountValentine

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They used an exaggerated sum to insinuate Yeshivos are taking an outsized share of funding. They fail to mention that Yeshivos actually take a minuscule amount of public resources for the education they provide, adequate or otherwise.
You are agreeing with the two statements but take issue with the amount of money being reported?
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Offline S209

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You are agreeing with the two statements but take issue with the amount of money being reported?
“Even so, The Times found, the Hasidic boys’ schools have found ways of tapping into enormous sums of government money, collecting more than $1 billion in the past four years alone.”

Are you saying context doesn’t matter? This is a very exaggerated sum, not least when most of that is for food. “the food is for education” is quite the pretzel and you know that.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 12:33:32 AM by S209 »
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Offline CountValentine

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“Even so, The Times found, the Hasidic boys’ schools have found ways of tapping into enormous sums of government money, collecting more than $1 billion in the past four years alone.”

Are you saying context doesn’t matter? This is a very exaggerated sum, not least when most of that is for food. “the food is for education” is quite the pretzel and you know that.
Context does matter and that is why I brought up the money. If that had the figure correct, then the two statements would be accurate?

ETA: I should give some context to "the food is for education". At one point my sister was the principal for the only self-supporting school (no parish church subsidies) in the Archdiocese. She received state/gov food subsidies. More she received meant more money was available for other student needs. It was all part of their education. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 12:46:40 AM by CountValentine »
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Offline biobook

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I think the letter from NYSED addresses this claim, I'll look it up.
I think this is the response from their letter that addresses the comment received about yeshiva graduates being successful:

5. COMMENT: Tens of thousands of individuals commented that the proposed
regulation is unnecessary because yeshivas do a good job, have successful graduates,
and/or that their religious community has less crime, drugs, suicide, incarceration, and
unemployment than other communities. Commenters argue that nothing has changed
to warrant the promulgation of a rule and that a small group of disgruntled yeshiva
graduates are driving the proposed regulations. Some state that the regulations will
have a detrimental effect on their nonpublic schools and may cause trauma to students.

RESPONSE: The Department considered these comments and determined no
change is necessary. The proposed regulation is applicable to all nonpublic schools, a
universe far broader than a single religious tradition. It is necessary to ensure that all
students receive the instruction to which they are entitled under the law and are
prepared for their place in society

Offline yesitsme

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https://twitter.com/EzraFriedlander/status/1569059606386679809

First opinion I see from Ezra that didn't make me vomit
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Offline yesitsme

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Offline S209

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He hadn't read the article at the point he wrote this.
Actually, he had (at least a late draft of it). The full article wasn’t out yet, and he was hoping to preempt some of the damage. Are you saying he’s required to play catch up on the chance he misses something, and that’s an inherent flaw in his response?

IOW, if he feels the article is biased, then he should respond in a biased fashion?
Who said he responded in a biased fashion? He described it in a negative fashion which IMHO was completely fair. You’re the one claiming his response was intrinsically biased.

Influence opinion of the Regents?  After they've been studying this issue for two years?  I don't see that there's much new for them here.
Influence public opinion, which certainly matters to the Regents, as it should.

Just not true.
I mean, it’s somewhat subjective, but I think we both know violence is quite low in frum neighborhoods. C’mon man.

That's not the insinuation.
I’m just going to have to call you out here. Did you read it?

“Spread across Brooklyn and the lower Hudson Valley, the schools turn out thousands of students each year who are unprepared to navigate the outside world, helping to push poverty rates in Hasidic neighborhoods to some of the highest in New York.”

“For many, the consequences of attending Hasidic schools can ripple across time. Students grow up and can barely support their own families. Some leave the community and end up addicted to drugs or alcohol. Others remain and feel they have little choice but to send their children to the schools.”

I agree, it's not relevant to mention the Holocaust, but the author seemed to consider Chassidim arriving after the Holocaust as a reason for their wanting this sort of yeshiva.
It was absolutely relevant. He was trying to rebut a point you seem to have difficulty seeing which is that the article is trying to form a suggestion that they are largely mooching off the State to fund the education, ignoring that the great majority of the money comes from private tuition. It’s simply untrue, and the private schooling is actually a great financial burden on parents, not some kind of devious way to scam more money from the good Gentiles of New York.

The article doesn't give that impression at all.  Maybe stealing from other taxpayers to fund religious education, but nowhere do I see mention of extravagant lifestyle.
“Even so, The Times found, the Hasidic boys’ schools have found ways of tapping into enormous sums of government money, collecting more than $1 billion in the past four years alone.” Sounds to me like a complaint that they are taking too much from the system. I said extravagant private school lifestyle, as in  they claim to be funding this “luxury”.

LOL.  It's bad enough that I spent time reading his response to an article he didn't read, I certainly don't intend wasting more time comparing his essay to the actual article.  He can do that.
He did, you haven’t managed to show any discrepancies between his response and what he responded to.

The example given shows girls in a state of dress, not undress. In one, a girl is changing a flat tire, and the text has the word "girl" crossed out.  They're not allowed to read the word?
Emphasis on the example. One example, from one school. This by implication makes it sound like a school could have no reason for possibly changing parts of a book at their discretion. I mentioned that this was a cherry picked exaggerated example chosen to make them look bad.

Hamayvin, yavin.  "At some yeshivas, students who bring in their parents’ “I Voted” stickers win rewards. The Central United Talmudical Academy recently took children with stickers on a trip to Coney Island, two parents said. The other children had to stay behind. Mr. Connolly, the lawyer for some Hasidic schools, disputed the parents’ account."
No, it’s just another attempt to smear the community. Did you read the article? It is rife with unrelated implication of the frum community. How exactly do you justify their inclusion of the voter registration “issue”?

Some “unbiased” gems from this totally objective non-hit-piece:
“Segregated by gender,”
“Warned about the problems over the years, city and state officials have avoided taking action, bowing to the influence of Hasidic leaders who push their followers to vote as a bloc and have made safeguarding the schools their top political priority.” (Standard trope, given a free pass).
“group of schools that is keeping some 50,000 boys from learning a broad array of secular subjects” -They don’t stop you from learning outside of Yeshiva should you so desire. Perhaps one or two outlying schools do.
“Some have been hired off Craigslist or ads on lamp posts.” Yes, I’m sure this is the standard hiring process for English teachers.
“During religious study, teachers in many of the boys’ schools have regularly smacked, slapped and kicked their students, records and interviews show, creating an environment of fear that makes learning difficult. At some schools, boys have called 911 to report being beaten.” (This is all about education, and this totally happens in every school, right?)
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Offline yesitsme

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Offline S209

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Context does matter and that is why I brought up the money. If that had the figure correct, then the two statements would be accurate?

Fact-check: misleading and missing context.

ETA: I should give some context to "the food is for education". At one point my sister was the principal for the only self-supporting school (no parish church subsidies) in the Archdiocese. She received state/gov food subsidies. More she received meant more money was available for other student needs. It was all part of their education.
Again. The parents would be paying, not the school. At my child’s school you either qualify for the lunch program or send a check to pay for food (or bring from home). The school gains nothing from the program. It’s a total misrepresentation to pretend the school is making money off this.
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Offline yesitsme

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Again. The parents would be paying, not the school. At my child’s school you either qualify for the lunch program or send a check to pay for food (or bring from home). The school gains nothing from the program. It’s a total misrepresentation to pretend the school is making money off this.
True there are many schools that don't even bother dealing with this since it's a headache
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Offline CountValentine

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Again. The parents would be paying, not the school. At my child’s school you either qualify for the lunch program or send a check to pay for food (or bring from home). The school gains nothing from the program. It’s a total misrepresentation to pretend the school is making money off this.
I guess it depends on the school as some private schools will subsidize the programs themselves.

I asked several times if the money figure was correct would you agree with the two statements and don't know if that is a yes or no.

It is like I asked about the test scores, and no one really answered. This is information the parents should have.   
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Offline CountValentine

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True there are many schools that don't even bother dealing with this since it's a headache
So they have no food program of their own?
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