NY Times vs. Chassidim

[imayid2]

You seem to have implied that orthodox Jews have been intentionally avoiding secular education for hundreds of years.But that wasn't true for the vast majority of orthodox Jews in America for the past 100 years.

That is simply not true. I did not imply that. I said “groups”. Like multiple times. In Europe there was deep opposition to secular instruction. This didn’t continue the same way for most in the US. Some groups prefer to keep their old way alive. They should be allowed to do so without government interference. Even if @biobook (or imayid2) thinks it’s wrong.

[CountValentine]

Orthodox schools that teach secular studies. What percent would you say?

[imayid2]

You're really going on a tangent here, almost no one has issues with learning secular subjects per se, they just either don't want to be forced to do it by the government, opening up doors for mandates on time or subjects, or don't want to devote "equivalent" time. If it wasn't for the first issue, I would be fine with equivalent or better results (I don't believe you need the time allowed in PS, as long as the kids are willing to learn).

What about the ones that do?

[imayid2]

No

Than we disagree. It’s ok. It happens

[yelped]

What about the ones that do?

Which? The only ones that I am aware of is Chabad in the main school, and they learn by osmosis from home and the community over there. Satmar, where that would not be the case, actually does teach secular subjects.

[Yehuda57]

@CV FWIU, the law was not on the books. There was wording in the law that said "substantially equivalent", but what that meant was not stated. For years some individuals have been requesting that the state clarify those words and enforce them. Over the last few years a couple of failed attempts were made, but this week they finally passed a set of guidelines.

[imayid2]

Orthodox schools that teach secular studies. What percent would you say?

100% teach at some level. The government decided it isn’t enough. They should not be getting involved.

[biobook]

In Europe there was deep opposition to secular instruction. ... Some groups prefer to keep their old way alive. They should be allowed to do so without government interference.

For most of those hundreds of years, the deep opposition to secular instruction came from the non-Jews who opposed admission of Jews to their institutions.  Is this the tradition they're keeping alive?

[flyingace]

I would assume zero. What is the relevance of this question?


You seem to have implied that orthodox Jews have been intentionally avoiding secular education for hundreds of years.But that wasn't true for the vast majority of orthodox Jews in America for the past 100 years. 

Historically, aside for Spain and maybe Italy, most Jewish communities did not teach secular subjects. And there were many cherems and controversies even then. Rabbi Samson Rafael Hirsch was an innovator who was trying to save the remnants of German Jewry when he introduced Jewish day schools that taught Jewish and secular subjects. Of course, there were people who learned secular subjects but it was not done on a communal level. America is the "chiddush" here, not the standard. And Eastern European Jews never agreed with the Torah Im Derech Eretz philosophy.

[imayid2]

Which? The only ones that I am aware of is Chabad in the main school, and they learn by osmosis from home and the community over there. Satmar, where that would not be the case, actually does teach secular subjects.

But the amount that they are comfortable with is being tampered with. It should not be.

[Alexsei]

Stop and think, what is the goal the people fighting against our mode of education is?

[imayid2]

Aside for Spain and maybe Italy, most Jewish communities did not teach secular subjects. And there were many cherems and controversies even then. Rabbi Samson Rafael Hirsch was an innovator who was trying to save the remnants of German Jewry when he introduced Jewish day schools that taught Jewish and secular subjects. Of course, there were people who learned secular subjects but it was not done on a communal level. America is the "chiddush" here, not the standard. And Eastern European Jews never agreed with the Torah Im Derech Eretz philosophy.

So true.
Most American Jews would be all in on Wessly and Berlins proposals and would be confused why they were viciously attacked for them.

[flyingace]

So true.
Most American Jews would be all in on Wessly and Berlins proposals and would be confused why they were viciously attacked for them.

Many Rabbanim did not recognize Mendelssohn's Biur for what it was, either.

[yelped]

But the amount that they are comfortable with is being tampered with. It should not be.

So don't go off on a tangent about don't bother the communities who oppose it totally. That's not a reality today, and even Chabad is opposed to it in school as either wasting Torah time, or of equating it with Torah Study, as far as I know.

[imayid2]

For most of those hundreds of years, the deep opposition to secular instruction came from the non-Jews who opposed admission of Jews to their institutions.  Is this the tradition they're keeping alive?

THIS IS FALSE!

[CountValentine]

@CV FWIU, the law was not on the books. There was wording in the law that said "substantially equivalent", but what that meant was not stated. For years some individuals have been requesting that the state clarify those words and enforce them. Over the last few years a couple of failed attempts were made, but this week they finally passed a set of guidelines.

That is the law I was talking about. "Substantially equivalent" seems clear to me but clarification is always good.
Could you imagine a court case being argued that our studies are substantially equivalent to PS? The judge asks how much math is taught? Answer is none. Chances of winning that case, none! 

[imayid2]

So don't go off on a tangent about don't bother the communities who oppose it totally. That's not a reality today, and even Chabad is opposed to it in school as either wasting Torah time, or of equating it with Torah Study, as far as I know.

You’re the one that’s on a tangent my friend.

[imayid2]

THIS IS FALSE!

And has little to nothing to do with the actual subject at hand. Leave it for Friday 

[CountValentine]

And has little to nothing to do with the actual subject at hand. Leave it for Friday 

I can't wait.

[biobook]

@CV FWIU, the law was not on the books. There was wording in the law that said "substantially equivalent", but what that meant was not stated. For years some individuals have been requesting that the state clarify those words and enforce them. Over the last few years a couple of failed attempts were made, but this week they finally passed a set of guidelines.

NYS Education Law with "substantial equivalence" was passed in 1895, and amended a few times since.

New York law on mandatory educational clearly requires that “each minor from seven to sixteen years of age shall attend upon full time day instruction” (Education Law, art. 65, § 3205, subd. 1). This instruction must include “at least the eleven common school branches of arithmetic, reading, spelling, writing, the English language, geography, United States history, civics, hygiene, physical training and the history of New York State” (Education Law, art. 65, § 3204, subd. 3).