NY Times vs. Chassidim

[Dan]

So don't go off on a tangent about don't bother the communities who oppose it totally. That's not a reality today, and even Chabad is opposed to it in school as either wasting Torah time, or of equating it with Torah Study, as far as I know.

It's...complicated.
https://www.chabad.org/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/7887/jewish/Chapter-8.htm

Pity this thread didn't take off, as I have a feeling that Sam can give an excellent shiur Tanya...
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=129154

[yelped]

It's...complicated.

It's easier to use chochma for Avoidas Hashem than to be maaleh nitzosos from food.

[biobook]

This is the 1950 Amendment that clarified (or added) history of NYS in lower grades, American history in upper.

a. (1) The course of study for the first eight years of full time public day schools shall provide for instruction in at least the eleven' common school branches of arithmetic, reading, spelling, writing, the English language, geography, United States history, civics, hygiene, physical training- and the history of New York state.

(2) The courses of study and of specialized training beyond the first eight years of full time public day schools shall provide for instruction in at least the English language and its use, in civics, hygiene, physical training and American history.

§ 2. This act shall take effect September first, nineteen hundred fifty.

Geography + History would be our "Social Studies".
Civics would include learning about the Constitution, government.
Hygiene was sort of Human Biology.

[Dan]

It's easier to use chochma for Avoidas Hashem than to be maaleh nitzosos from food.

Well that's certainly debatable. Seems from Tanya above that the Alter Rebbe would disagree.

[aygart]

100% teach at some level. The government decided it isn’t enough. They should not be getting involved.

Definitely not the case if you include high schools.

[yelped]

Well that's certainly debatable. Seems from Tanya above that the Alter Rebbe would disagree.

I'm not sure why you would say that. The Tanya says that the capacity of Chochmas HaUmos to do harm is much more than just idle talk. He doesn't say that it is harder to utilize the chochma for good things like Parnasa or other Avoidas HaShem.

That's similar to what I would say about music. Music is extremely powerful and can be very damaging, but it is much easier to get inspired by music than a drasha or good food etc.

[AsherO]

Yes but did you learn sarcasm?

That part’s on me, not the school

[biobook]

Most orthodox schools have adhered to government standards on secular education for generations.

Likely because that's what their parent body desires.

More likely it simply never occurred to them to challenge the law, which were followed by the Jewish Day Schools, Torah Umesorah, and the like.

[Dan]

I'm not sure why you would say that. The Tanya says that the capacity of Chochmas HaUmos to do harm is much more than just idle talk. He doesn't say that it is harder to utilize the chochma for good things like Parnasa or other Avoidas HaShem.

He says it's metameh bechinas Chaba"d of the Nefesh Elokis. That is no small task to purify and elevate and certainly seems like a higher bar than elevating food and drink.

[Dan]

Rabbi Braun of CH:
https://streamable.com/m7i74a

Full video:

[Eb228]

For most of those hundreds of years, the deep opposition to secular instruction came from the non-Jews who opposed admission of Jews to their institutions.  Is this the tradition they're keeping alive?

Um... Volozhin 1792?

[biobook]

Um... Volozhin 1792?

That's the year you see Jewish history as starting?

[imayid2]

I'm not sure you have this right.

Which?

I don’t understand this world. But the people who feel this way should have the right to raise their children the way they feel.
Especially when the government doesn’t infringe on MUCH WORSE THINGS! Did anyone notice the fish out of water? I spotted two (Hint - they aren’t the people I quoted)

[imayid2]

Definitely not the case if you include high schools.

Wasn’t.

[moko]

Interesting to note that two of the most vocal Rabbinical voices in opposition are Harav Yacov Bender, and Harav Yisrael Reinsman, both Roshei Yeshiva of yeshivos that have fairly extensive secular studies when compared to the yeshivos being discussed.
It's indicative of the general feeling

[imayid2]

That's the year you see Jewish history as starting?

Hold on. Is this not a tradition that’s fit to be kept alive?
I’ll assume you weren’t responding to the point again

[yelped]

He says it's metameh bechinas Chaba"d of the Nefesh Elokis. That is no small task to purify and elevate and certainly seems like a higher bar than elevating food and drink.

Yes, being more powerful doesn't necessarily mean it's harder to steer in the right direction. It's not the same as purifying the mundane, it's more like steering the wheel in the right direction.

[EliJelly]

I don’t understand this world. But the people who feel this way should have the right to raise their children the way they feel.
Especially when the government doesn’t infringe on MUCH WORSE THINGS! Did anyone notice the fish out of water? I spotted two

I also know of a very few fringe people who do that, their kids leave the class before "English", and they should definitely have the right for that, but that's on an individual basis. If I'm not mistaken, all of the chassidic cheiders do have secular study time in the afternoon, besides for chabad. (I'm not responsible if those newly popped mini basement schools of anti vax/anti you-name-it are doing otherwise).

[CountValentine]

This is the 1950 Amendment that clarified (or added) history of NYS in lower grades, American history in upper.

a. (1) The course of study for the first eight years of full time public day schools shall provide for instruction in at least the eleven' common school branches of arithmetic, reading, spelling, writing, the English language, geography, United States history, civics, hygiene, physical training- and the history of New York state.

(2) The courses of study and of specialized training beyond the first eight years of full time public day schools shall provide for instruction in at least the English language and its use, in civics, hygiene, physical training and American history.

§ 2. This act shall take effect September first, nineteen hundred fifty.

Geography + History would be our "Social Studies".
Civics would include learning about the Constitution, government.
Hygiene was sort of Human Biology.

The law in some form has been there forever.

[Yehuda57]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-campaign-against-our-yeshivas-education-new-york-board-regents-investigation-hasidic-school-activists-11663279661