NY Times vs. Chassidim

[Euclid]

Because they don’t need to study Torah.

Are the kids who don't have secular studies actually learning more Torah (in the long run, when they're adults and actually have an obligation to)?

[imayid2]

Are the kids who don't have secular studies actually learning more Torah (in the long run, when they're adults and actually have an obligation to)?

It’s not necessary a direct cause.

[imayid2]

That makes no sense.

Of course not. But that’s where the attitude comes from.

[biobook]

The prevailing traditional Rabbinic attitude towards secular education was usually on a scale of aversion to outright rejection.

I see now (and in your previous post) that there are two ways of looking at this. 
When someone says "Our tradition is to reject secular education", do they mean this is what our Rabbinical authorities have said in the past? Or this is what we have actually done in the past? 
I've been taking it to mean the second, and perhaps that's why I wasn't persuaded by some of the claims here. 

Anyway, maybe you should start a new post on history, so we don't get too far off track.

for sources on the period here are 2 interesting memoirs, although there are many more sources

Thanks, on my amazon wish list!  Here's the Pinsk book I mentioned, which has a 50 page chapter on Education and Culture, much of which can be read on amazon.
The Jews of Pinsk, 1881 to 1941, by Azriel Shohet
https://www.amazon.com/Stanford-Studies-Jewish-History-Culture/dp/0804741581

[imayid2]

Of course not. But that’s where the attitude comes from.

To clarify, I absolutely agree that if you’re doing it do it right. I’m just explaining where the attitude problem stems from.

[dm123]

I see now (and in your previous post) that there are two ways of looking at this. 
When someone says "Our tradition is to reject secular education", do they mean this is what our Rabbinical authorities have said in the past? Or this is what we have actually done in the past? 
I've been taking it to mean the second, and perhaps that's why I wasn't persuaded by some of the claims here. 

Exactly - what does "tradition" mean. Glad I could bring a bit more understanding into the world.

Here's the Pinsk book I mentioned, which has a 50 page chapter on Education and Culture, much of which can be read on amazon.
The Jews of Pinsk, 1881 to 1941, by Azriel Shohet
https://www.amazon.com/Stanford-Studies-Jewish-History-Culture/dp/0804741581

Thanks for this, as well as the R Schachter piece, I was able to glance at a few pages and want to read it, not sure when I'll have a chance though.

[aygart]

I see now (and in your previous post) that there are two ways of looking at this. 
When someone says "Our tradition is to reject secular education", do they mean this is what our Rabbinical authorities have said in the past? Or this is what we have actually done in the past? 
I've been taking it to mean the second, and perhaps that's why I wasn't persuaded by some of the claims here. 

Anyway, maybe you should start a new post on history, so we don't get too far off track.
Thanks, on my amazon wish list!  Here's the Pinsk book I mentioned, which has a 50 page chapter on Education and Culture, much of which can be read on amazon.
The Jews of Pinsk, 1881 to 1941, by Azriel Shohet
https://www.amazon.com/Stanford-Studies-Jewish-History-Culture/dp/0804741581

My understanding is that this varied greatly between eastern and western Europe. Some of the countries in the Middle had varying degrees.

[imayid2]

My understanding is that this varied greatly between eastern and western Europe. Some of the countries in the Middle had varying degrees.

And the varying degrees were directly in line with their attitude on the much studied topic “confronting modernity” (besides for the Spain and Italy approach which doesn’t really have continuity). Modernity is a phenomena that some of these groups apparently reject. Now if somebody disagrees with a specific approach then I would say hey it’s a free country, you can do what you want. But it’s a two way street.

[yesitsme]

https://twitter.com/JakeTurx/status/1570876317893300225

[gozalim]

If we took all the kids in the public school system and sent them to private schools all our problems would be solved?

actually, now that you mention it, we do have values that, if we would 'export' to the general public, would be very helpful in fixing their problems and bringing their failures closer to our successes.

and believe it or not, there are tried and tested, constitutionally acceptable ways to do that. see https://momentofsilence.info/

see also www.chabad.org/3961883/

[gozalim]

I have orthodox relatives who went that route.  I'm sure there are others here who can give the same answer.

I don't want my kids growing up with your hashkafos

[imayid2]

I don't want my kids growing up with your hashkafos

Whoa. This isn’t particularly fair. It was never stated outright that this was a preferred path. In fact the impression was that it wasn’t the the personally chosen path. It was somewhat of a clinical observation that it’s a path that in the opinion of the observer worked for some people.
Since there was unfortunately an insinuation that this was an acceptable path, I would absolutely clarify that it’s a 100% prohibited tried-and-failed-for-many path. And observations including a time period when large swaths of public school included children of religious Jews, and very different curriculums, is faulty anyway.

[Yehuda57]

Some explanation of why they did it:
https://forward.com/forverts-in-english/517577/why-the-new-york-times-translated-its-hasidic-yeshiva-investigation-into-yiddish/

“Our reporting showed that many in the community did not speak English well, and we wanted them to be able to access the story,” LaForgia said."

“More broadly, we thought taking the time to translate it would underscore the reality of what we were doing: beginning a conversation and focusing attention on some of the least powerful members of this community.”

I had read the Forward piece before this comment, and frankly that reasoning doesn't do anything to answer the heart of the question. I replied to the editor of the forward and quote tweeted Eliza Shapiro, didn't get an answer from either, though I wasn't expecting one.

Your ability to give the benefit of the doubt that they want to hear the other side of the story is commendable, but to a point. At what stage do you stop being dan lkaf zchus and start being naive? They worked on this for two years. They interviewed 275 people. They published numerous anecdotes that aren't backed up by data. Which is fine. Having a solid story being backed up by anecdotes is common and they are what keeps a dry story intresting and readable. But where are the anecdotes from pro Yeshivah parents? They couldn't find any? Hundreds of thousands of people wrote comments in support of yeshivas, they couldn't publish one of them?

They went to the Forward to find a Yiddish writer. They could have asked for a Chareidi parent. I've written for the Forward. Many yeshivah parents have.

I got messages from people during the early days of covid asking if I could provide a comment from the Chareidi point of view.

I'm not a media personality or community spokesperson, but people know where to find someone when they need it.

If it was just the Yiddish, fine. If it was just the anecdotes, maybe. But I've posted by now about a dozen clear ways the article was dishonest by outright lies, omission of context, or bad framing. And that list is not even complete!

At a certain point you have to conclude that this was a smear. It was regurgitating the points Yaffed have been pushing for years without looking at them critically or with any level of honesty.

It painted Chassidim as poverty stricken, uneducated, corporal punishment using, alcohol and drug abusing money grubbing scammers stealing government money out of pockets of desperate minorities.

[CountValentine]

actually, now that you mention it, we do have values that, if we would 'export' to the general public, would be very helpful in fixing their problems and bringing their failures closer to our successes.

and believe it or not, there are tried and tested, constitutionally acceptable ways to do that. see https://momentofsilence.info/

see also www.chabad.org/3961883/

Tried and tested for what? It is and was a backdoor way to get religion into public schools and that is why it was originally struck down. Then it was crafted to pass a constitutional test, but its main purpose still stands.

[Dan]

I had read the Forward piece before this comment, and frankly that reasoning doesn't do anything to answer the heart of the question. I replied to the editor of the forward and quote tweeted Eliza Shapiro, didn't get an answer from either, though I wasn't expecting one.

Your ability to give the benefit of the doubt that they want to hear the other side of the story is commendable, but to a point. At what stage do you stop being dan lkaf zchus and start being naive? They worked on this for two years. They interviewed 275 people. They published numerous anecdotes that aren't backed up by data. Which is fine. Having a solid story being backed up by anecdotes is common and they are what keeps a dry story intresting and readable. But where are the anecdotes from pro Yeshivah parents? They couldn't find any? Hundreds of thousands of people wrote comments in support of yeshivas, they couldn't publish one of them?

They went to the Forward to find a Yiddish writer. They could have asked for a Chareidi parent. I've written for the Forward. Many yeshivah parents have.

I got messages from people during the early days of covid asking if I could provide a comment from the Chareidi point of view.

I'm not a media personality or community spokesperson, but people know where to find someone when they need it.

If it was just the Yiddish, fine. If it was just the anecdotes, maybe. But I've posted by now about a dozen clear ways the article was dishonest by outright lies, omission of context, or bad framing. And that list is not even complete!

At a certain point you have to conclude that this was a smear. It was regurgitating the points Yaffed have been pushing for years without looking at them critically or with any level of honesty.

It painted Chassidim as poverty stricken, uneducated, corporal punishment using, alcohol and drug abusing money grubbing scammers stealing government money out of pockets of desperate minorities.

Time to compile your points together and write an op-ed?

[EliJelly]

Time to compile your points together and write an op-ed?

+1. Should be published at least on DDMS.

[Dan]

+1. Should be published at least on DDMS.

Always open for guest submissions, though would be great to see it in the forward/tablet.

[Yehuda57]

Time to compile your points together and write an op-ed?

There have been so many responses which include what I've touched on. Not sure if another one on the pile will be useful for anyone

[CountValentine]

actually, now that you mention it, we do have values that, if we would 'export' to the general public, would be very helpful in fixing their problems and bringing their failures closer to our successes.

I don't want my kids growing up with your hashkafos

[imayid2]

Lol!