Author Topic: NY Times vs. Chassidim  (Read 122903 times)

Offline biobook

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so my response is that we shouldn't take any conclusions from a letter that the people didn't write only the attorneys drafted something they believed will be best for the case.

I just found the letter that the judge wrote at sentencing the administrator (in 2019), and it turns out the judge agrees with you, that we shouldn't believe the letters that he received.  The lawyers had argued that he should avoid jail time because of the effect his absence would have on his wife and 11 children. 

The judge responded "..the evidence suggests that the defendantís wife has had the means to adequately care for their family on her own when necessary for long periods of time."  He based that on learning that the administrators wife had submitted applications for food stamps and other benefits for several years in which she declared that she was either single or separated with 11 dependent children for which her husband contributed only a few hundred dollars per month in child support. 

So you're right, the letters written in his defense don't necessarily help us understand what was going on.  And in any event, the administrator's case was settled in 2019, and the current case refers to additional fraud that was discovered while investigating the theft of the lunch and supper funds.

Offline imayid2

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Why would being an inexperienced newbie excuse fraud? What you (and others) are implying (if not saying straight up) is that EVERYONE would be stealing and doing the same fraud, except most of the folks are experienced and know they'll get caught, but the n00bs don't and so they got busted. Is that really what you think is true?
Of course itís true to an extent.
How many people would pay taxes if for whatever hypothetical reason there would be no enforcement and zero repercussions for not doing so?
That of course isnít an ďexcuseĒ to commit fraud. Itís a fact of life. Somebody who believes he can get away with it is far far more likely to behave improperly. Itís laughable to suggest that a public school education would prevent this. To the contrary, the recognition of a divinely ordained code of ethics would far surpass any lessons of this type that are taught in a secular context. That was what was expressed in the letter to the judge.

Offline yelped

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I just found the letter that the judge wrote at sentencing the administrator (in 2019), and it turns out the judge agrees with you, that we shouldn't believe the letters that he received.  The lawyers had argued that he should avoid jail time because of the effect his absence would have on his wife and 11 children. 

The judge responded "..the evidence suggests that the defendantís wife has had the means to adequately care for their family on her own when necessary for long periods of time."  He based that on learning that the administrators wife had submitted applications for food stamps and other benefits for several years in which she declared that she was either single or separated with 11 dependent children for which her husband contributed only a few hundred dollars per month in child support. 

So you're right, the letters written in his defense don't necessarily help us understand what was going on.  And in any event, the administrator's case was settled in 2019, and the current case refers to additional fraud that was discovered while investigating the theft of the lunch and supper funds.
Ouch! What a zinger!

Offline randomjay

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I just found the letter that the judge wrote at sentencing the administrator (in 2019), and it turns out the judge agrees with you, that we shouldn't believe the letters that he received.  The lawyers had argued that he should avoid jail time because of the effect his absence would have on his wife and 11 children. 

The judge responded "..the evidence suggests that the defendantís wife has had the means to adequately care for their family on her own when necessary for long periods of time."  He based that on learning that the administrators wife had submitted applications for food stamps and other benefits for several years in which she declared that she was either single or separated with 11 dependent children for which her husband contributed only a few hundred dollars per month in child support. 

So you're right, the letters written in his defense don't necessarily help us understand what was going on.  And in any event, the administrator's case was settled in 2019, and the current case refers to additional fraud that was discovered while investigating the theft of the lunch and supper funds.

That's so courageous of you to acknowledge you were wrong...
 

Offline CountValentine

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To the contrary, the recognition of a divinely ordained code of ethics would far surpass any lessons of this type that are taught in a secular context. That was what was expressed in the letter to the judge.
I wonder if that is true. Child molestation comes to mind.
Disclaimer: I am not talking about those who practice Judaism.
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Offline biobook

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It’s laughable to suggest that a public school education would prevent this.
I was discreetly noting that a yeshiva education did not prevent it.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 05:07:58 PM by biobook »

Offline randomjay

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Why would being an inexperienced newbie excuse fraud? What you (and others) are implying (if not saying straight up) is that EVERYONE would be stealing and doing the same fraud, except most of the folks are experienced and know they'll get caught, but the n00bs don't and so they got busted. Is that really what you think is true?
No, I am not excusing fraud in any shape or form. My point was to refute the concept, that the CUTA story is proof that widespread fraud exists within Chasidic schools. Especially the way NYT relates to them as the largest Hasidic school system which is plain false. Fact is, that at the time of the scheme, CUTA was a brand new school created during the Satmar split. The whole staff from top to bottom were real young and inexperienced with hot blood etc. While within the principals and teachers they may have taken a handful of staff from the original UTA school, no one from the administration and board were from the original UTA. You simply cannot compare the whole spectrum of Chasidic schools of respected and decades of experienced administrators to CUTA at the time.

Offline CountValentine

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My point was to refute the concept, that the CUTA story is proof that widespread fraud exists within Chasidic schools.
Who is saying that?
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Offline randomjay

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Who is saying that?

1 example
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I am going to say this as politely as possible:<br><br>To those who didn&#39;t believe us or questioned our credibility all these years when we were exposing the violations and fraud in many Hasidic Yeshivas (let alone to those of you who intentionally looked the other way):<br><br>Shame on you.</p>&mdash; Naftuli Moster (@nmoster) <a href="https://twitter.com/nmoster/status/1584649130466775040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 24, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Offline CountValentine

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Offline EliJelly

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No, I am not excusing fraud in any shape or form. My point was to refute the concept, that the CUTA story is proof that widespread fraud exists within Chasidic schools. Especially the way NYT relates to them as the largest Hasidic school system which is plain false. Fact is, that at the time of the scheme, CUTA was a brand new school created during the Satmar split. The whole staff from top to bottom were real young and inexperienced with hot blood etc. While within the principals and teachers they may have taken a handful of staff from the original UTA school, no one from the administration and board were from the original UTA. You simply cannot compare the whole spectrum of Chasidic schools of respected and decades of experienced administrators to CUTA at the time.

Well beware that by just pointing out the above you may be accused of "sugarcoating" crimes.

Offline imayid2

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I wonder if that is true. Child molestation comes to mind.
Disclaimer: I am not talking about those who practice Judaism.
FWIU the actual misdeeds are despite of, not because of, the religious education the molesters had. The complaints are how the institutions deal with the misdeeds of their members.

Offline CountValentine

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FWIU the actual misdeeds are despite of, not because of, the religious education the molesters had.
Did you really just say that?  :)
I hope no religion is teaching to molest.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Well beware that by just pointing out the above you may be accused of "sugarcoating" crimes.

Why is it not sugarcoating if you're trying to provide background info or context to lessen the severity of the misdeeds? That's sugarcoating. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but that's just what you're doing.

Also, if the nature of the crimes could be excused by inexperience, fine. That doesn't seem to be the case here, though I'll admit I haven't read too much about it.

Offline EliJelly

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Why is it not sugarcoating if you're trying to provide background info or context to lessen the severity of the misdeeds? That's sugarcoating. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but that's just what you're doing.

Also, if the nature of the crimes could be excused by inexperience, fine. That doesn't seem to be the case here, though I'll admit I haven't read too much about it.

Please tell me how exactly you picked up my intent to "lessen the severity of the misdeeds"?? There was a series of botched decisions made by that school. Again, besides for the fraud aspect there was also the agreeing to administer the state's standardized tests, which the results of that will likely be publicized by the NYT twice per week for the foreseeable future. I was offering some context of how that occurred without going into the details of the fraud which I haven't read extensively myself either. 

That's not what he said. He said He just gave some background on what in the world the administration was thinking.

Offline randomjay

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Why is it not sugarcoating if you're trying to provide background info or context to lessen the severity of the misdeeds? That's sugarcoating. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but that's just what you're doing.

Also, if the nature of the crimes could be excused by inexperience, fine. That doesn't seem to be the case here, though I'll admit I haven't read too much about it.
You probably didnít read my full post, otherwise you wouldnít state that I am trying to lessen the crime by pointing out that the actions of a new school with young naiive inexperienced staff is not a picture of the entire chasidic school system.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 11:12:16 PM by randomjay »

Offline biobook

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No, I am not excusing fraud in any shape or form. My point was to refute the concept, that the CUTA story is proof that widespread fraud exists within Chasidic schools.
I don't think anyone here was suggesting that this story proves that all Chasidic schools are generally engaging in widespread fraud. But that thought will undoubtedly occur to those who hear the story in the media, whether from the NYT or elsewhere.  The earlier NYT story led to an outpouring of articles by askanim denouncing it and pointing out each inaccuracy in an attempt to correct public perception of Chasidic schools.  Why haven't we see the same response now?  Or am I just reading the wrong sources?

Offline CountValentine

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Well beware that by just pointing out the above you may be accused of "sugarcoating" crimes.
If you are going to use terms like "misdeeds" and "shady behavior" when it was straight out fraud then in my book that is sugarcoating it.
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Offline EliJelly

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If you are going to use terms like "misdeeds" and "shady behavior" when it was straight out fraud then in my book that is sugarcoating it.

Misdeeds wasn't my term, @Yehuda57 actually used it and I quoted him. Shady behavior includes not only outright fraud but accepting those tests which were bound to fail which I happen to take great issue with. Look, I ain't gonna go in circles defending myself from baseless assumptions made by you and others and frankly I don't really care much how you define things in your book.

Offline CountValentine

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...I don't really care much how you define things in your book.
I guess we found common ground then.
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