Calling everyone "Rabbi"

[Sam Finkelstein]

If I called you Sir would you be upset because you haven’t been Knighted?

Sir connotes knighthood only when used as a prefix. If you tell me, "Rabbi, you forgot your bags at the checkout." it means something totally different than "please see Rabbi Finkelstein at the register."

I’m not sure why Lakewood doesn’t have the authority to translate Lithuanian Yiddish into English as much as anyone else. How would you translate “Reb” into English?

R' is short for Reb, which means Mister. Ask anyone who grew up when everyone still spoke Yiddish.

[Sam Finkelstein]

Dunno but the entire Lakewood calls him Reb Malkiel

Typical. When you call everyone a rabbi they think everyone's equal.

[S209]

Sir connotes knighthood only when used as a prefix. If you tell me, "Rabbi, you forgot your bags at the checkout." it means something totally different than "please see Rabbi Finkelstein at the register."

Are you trying to prove my point? Similar to Sir, the word Rabbi doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing when used as a prefix. Thanks for your example.

R' is short for Reb, which means Mister. Ask anyone who grew up when everyone still spoke Yiddish.

I can do better, many of the people in Lakewood who call others “Rabbi X” speak Yiddish. I assume you claim to a greater understanding of Yiddish than R’ Malkiel (who speaks Yiddish as a first language)?

The same goes for the Roshei Yeshiva of the Yeshiva I grew up in and the way many I know refer to Reb Moshe, Reb Shlomo Zalman, etc. (Others use the preferable term “Rav Moshe”). Now that I think about it, it could actually come across as disrespectful for a Yeshivish person to refer to R’ Moshe as “Rabbi Feinstein”, so I take back what I said earlier- Rabbi actually means something lower than Reb (which connotes respectful familiarity) to most Yeshivishe people. That’s neither right nor wrong, just the vernacular.

Isn’t it interesting when you learn about other cultures?

[S209]

Typical. When you call everyone a rabbi they think everyone's equal.

Maybe you still don’t realize they don’t use the term in the way you are familiar with.

[Sam Finkelstein]

I can do better, many of the people in Lakewood who call others “Rabbi X” speak Yiddish.

I know Yiddish as well. But I also know enough English to understand that Rabbi is not the equivalent of Reb.

Maybe you still don’t realize they don’t use the term in the way you are familiar with.

No, they should know better. It's just another feel-good patronizing of anyone and everyone who is in the same sect as you. And the proof is that the Lakewood Cheder only throws around "Rabbi" in their Lakewood ads. Let me ask you, seriously, do you think it's respectful to Rabbi Mordechai Moskowitz to have the same title as the Balebatim being honored at the dinner?

[S209]

I know Yiddish as well. But I also know enough English to understand that Rabbi is not the equivalent of Reb.

I disagree, and I haven’t yet seen evidence that I’m wrong. I can show that I’m right- the common usage of a word is what defines it, and the proof is in the pudding.

No, they should know better. It's just another feel-good patronizing of anyone and everyone who is in the same sect as you. And the proof is that the Lakewood Cheder only throws around "Rabbi" in their Lakewood ads. Let me ask you, seriously, do you think it's respectful to Rabbi Mordechai Moskowitz to have the same title as the Balebatim being honored at the dinner?

It’s ok with me. If it doesn’t bother the people they are doing it to it’s not patronizing. Apparently it bothers you but IMHO most in Lakewood expect it and like it. Some of the wealthiest and most influential people go by Mister, is that disrespectful because they are equal to those of “inferior status” who also go by Mister?

If they felt he was worthy of the title HaRav perhaps they would have used that.

[Sam Finkelstein]

I disagree, and I haven’t yet seen evidence that I’m wrong.

The best evidence I could offer you is that in the established Kehillos, they have different titles for calling different people up, based on their stature. Though those types of places seem to be in short supply in Lakewood.

If they felt he was worthy of the title HaRav perhaps they would have used that.

"Rabbi" is fine if it's not cheapened by being thrown in front of everyone's names for the sake of "image."

[imayid2]

There is no way to a have a clear way of defining who should be worthy of the term in a place like Lakewood.

[Sam Finkelstein]

There is no way to a have a clear way of defining who should be worthy of the term in a place like Lakewood.

Let’s start with who definitely should be called Rabbi, who definitely should not be called Rabbi, and hash out the middle ground. Calling everyone that from bottom to top is not the answer.

And what’s so unique about Lakewood at this point?

[yungermanchik]

I came across this:
The last paragraph on the left page going to the top of the right page:

[good sam]

Why are we going on a tandem and exasperating the situation!

Can we get back on the tandem? (I get the front)

[WayBackMachine]

gotta get used to this
Rabbi OneJerseySchor

https://twitter.com/LakewoodScoop/status/1626352386829680643

[Moshe123]

Only seeing this thread now.
Nobody mentioned ע'רעב....

[jfish227]

gotta get used to this
Rabbi OneJerseySchor

https://twitter.com/LakewoodScoop/status/1626352386829680643

https://twitter.com/OneJerseySchorr/status/1626548646392000512

[mevinyavin]

I always protested when someone called me Rabbi. Personally I thought that calling me Rabbi disrespected the title. Without fighting what is probably the established minhag, I couldn't let people use it on me.
After I actually got semicha, I let it be. (Can't disrespect RYB who signed off on it.) So anyone who it bothers to be called Rabbi should simply go get a semicha... Nidda is the easiest, I think.

Agav, that anectode about HaRav Shraga Feivel on the first page of the discussion is inaccurate. Rav Shraga Feivel did get semicha. He just didn't identify as Rabbi, regardless.
There is one story brought that when he was visiting Ner Yisroel, the gabbai called him up for an aliyah as Harav. Legend says Rav Shraga Feivel said to him, "You're giving me semicha?!"

In our shul, everyone is called up as "Rav" (not "Reb"), but 65% of us have semicha... RYBs gets called up as "Moreinu HaRav" despite qualifying for more (arguably). The Rav has three or more students in the shul who are practicing Rabbonim, Poskim and Roshei Chaburah, but they still get called as "Rav." Then last year, one of them was elevated to segan Rav of the shul, and now he is also called up as "Moreinu." Go figure...

[Yakov15]

The best evidence I could offer you is that in the established Kehillos, they have different titles for calling different people up, based on their stature. Though those types of places seem to be in short supply in Lakewood.

"Rabbi" is fine if it's not cheapened by being thrown in front of everyone's names for the sake of "image."

Look at the established yeshivish kehillos outside of lakewood and you won’t find the different titling. So maybe it’s a yeshivish thing.

Perhaps the reason why those places are in short supply in lakewood is because we’re supposedly all here for BMG, so what are we doing opening our own kehilla in lakewood? (And all that changed just fairly recently, so I guess give it time)

[aygart]

I always protested when someone called me Rabbi. Personally I thought that calling me Rabbi disrespected the title. Without fighting what is probably the established minhag, I couldn't let people use it on me.
After I actually got semicha, I let it be. (Can't disrespect RYB who signed off on it.) So anyone who it bothers to be called Rabbi should simply go get a semicha... Nidda is the easiest, I think.

Agav, that anectode about HaRav Shraga Feivel on the first page of the discussion is inaccurate. Rav Shraga Feivel did get semicha. He just didn't identify as Rabbi, regardless.
There is one story brought that when he was visiting Ner Yisroel, the gabbai called him up for an aliyah as Harav. Legend says Rav Shraga Feivel said to him, "You're giving me semicha?!"

In our shul, everyone is called up as "Rav" (not "Reb"), but 65% of us have semicha... RYBs gets called up as "Moreinu HaRav" despite qualifying for more (arguably). The Rav has three or more students in the shul who are practicing Rabbonim, Poskim and Roshei Chaburah, but they still get called as "Rav." Then last year, one of them was elevated to segan Rav of the shul, and now he is also called up as "Moreinu." Go figure...

https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=921#p=113&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%91%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A1

[S209]

Look at the established yeshivish kehillos outside of lakewood and you won’t find the different titling. So maybe it’s a yeshivish thing.

Perhaps the reason why those places are in short supply in lakewood is because we’re supposedly all here for BMG, so what are we doing opening our own kehilla in lakewood? (And all that changed just fairly recently, so I guess give it time)

You’re exactly right. It’s clearly a cultural thing and I truly don’t understand why it bothers people. Saying “words have meaning” without providing evidence for said meaning makes it sound like you just want everyone to do things your way.

[S209]

Calling everyone that from bottom to top is not the answer.

Says who?

[aygart]

Look at the established yeshivish kehillos outside of lakewood and you won’t find the different titling. So maybe it’s a yeshivish thing.

Perhaps the reason why those places are in short supply in lakewood is because we’re supposedly all here for BMG, so what are we doing opening our own kehilla in lakewood? (And all that changed just fairly recently, so I guess give it time)

Go to the guy walking around Jackson on shabbos afternoon in his shorts and tell him that you don't consider him on the same level as a kollel yungerman and see what reaction you get.