Author Topic: Are there any lessons for next time?  (Read 8357 times)

Offline 4yourinfo

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2022, 12:04:48 PM »
The middle one there is ridiculous since the concerns they were saying the whole time about how they don't know how much immunity will help have played out exactly how they were concerned they would. We see people getting it for a second and third time all over the place.
Actually, I think the middle one was the biggest mistake of them all! Immunity clearly worked until other strains came around. I believe had they been honest and recognized immunity was working - as we saw clearly in the first heavy hit areas - just maybe then when the strain that came out that immunity seemed to be very weak people may have actually listened. For some reason they have no problem running with vaccines with all kinds of promises of protection and stopping the spread - somehow that we know works for any strain etc..
Why were we so concerned that immunity possibly doesn't work and we refused to even look at what we were seeing all over? could we not have treated those with immunity similar to those with the vaccine - we never saw much of a difference in regard to protecting others, other than claims that vaccines saved people from dying...
lesson 1 for me - don't deny the obvious you will lose many people


Offline aygart

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2022, 01:32:54 PM »
Actually, I think the middle one was the biggest mistake of them all! Immunity clearly worked until other strains came around. I believe had they been honest and recognized immunity was working - as we saw clearly in the first heavy hit areas - just maybe then when the strain that came out that immunity seemed to be very weak people may have actually listened. For some reason they have no problem running with vaccines with all kinds of promises of protection and stopping the spread - somehow that we know works for any strain etc..
Why were we so concerned that immunity possibly doesn't work and we refused to even look at what we were seeing all over? could we not have treated those with immunity similar to those with the vaccine - we never saw much of a difference in regard to protecting others, other than claims that vaccines saved people from dying...
lesson 1 for me - don't deny the obvious you will lose many people



 ::) :o ???
1. we are also seeing immunity wearing off even for the same or similar strains.
2. The evolution of strains is part of why they said that we don't know how long immunity will last. We knew that strains will evolve because they ALWAYS do. Strains weren't an unexpected twist.
3. Doesn't seem you learned the lesson not to deny the obvious since you are doing it right here in this post.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline AsherO

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2022, 02:38:07 PM »
::) :o ???
1. we are also seeing immunity wearing off even for the same or similar strains.
2. The evolution of strains is part of why they said that we don't know how long immunity will last. We knew that strains will evolve because they ALWAYS do. Strains weren't an unexpected twist.
3. Doesn't seem you learned the lesson not to deny the obvious since you are doing it right here in this post.

Yup. Sadly the first lesson learned is that we didnít learn any lessons
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Offline 4yourinfo

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2022, 03:02:27 PM »
::) :o ???
1. we are also seeing immunity wearing off even for the same or similar strains.
2. The evolution of strains is part of why they said that we don't know how long immunity will last. We knew that strains will evolve because they ALWAYS do. Strains weren't an unexpected twist.
3. Doesn't seem you learned the lesson not to deny the obvious since you are doing it right here in this post.
Very convenient change the timeline what happened and said etc..
"We don't know how long immunity will last" was something that was only said after 6 months of clearly seeing people had immunity - so they were forced to admit after denying "we don't know if there is immunity" when they were just looking silly... They changed tunes to "there's immunity but it's already 6 months+ so we don't know how long esp. with new strains..."
You can't change how it played out I was alive sorry!
I am not talking about later strains when people seemed to have gotten covid multiple times (possibly same strain?)
People lost their trust in the officials when there was a complete denial and 0 recognition of immunity with a prior infection. I believe this was a big factor why a big part of the population became extremely weary of anything that was said going forward.

Offline aygart

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2022, 03:44:16 PM »
Very convenient change the timeline what happened and said etc..
"We don't know how long immunity will last" was something that was only said after 6 months of clearly seeing people had immunity - so they were forced to admit after denying "we don't know if there is immunity" when they were just looking silly... They changed tunes to "there's immunity but it's already 6 months+ so we don't know how long esp. with new strains..."
You can't change how it played out I was alive sorry!
I am not talking about later strains when people seemed to have gotten covid multiple times (possibly same strain?)
People lost their trust in the officials when there was a complete denial and 0 recognition of immunity with a prior infection. I believe this was a big factor why a big part of the population became extremely weary of anything that was said going forward.
When did they say more than we don't know how immunity will work? That is what I remember the entire time.
Are you saying that there were claims that there was definitely no immunity at all? I don't remember hearing that. You will need to find a quote for that one.

Who is "they" anyhow?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 03:51:33 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline 4yourinfo

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2022, 04:25:20 PM »
When did they say more than we don't know how immunity will work? That is what I remember the entire time.
Are you saying that there were claims that there was definitely no immunity at all? I don't remember hearing that. You will need to find a quote for that one.

Who is "they" anyhow?
Foggy memory? Covid?

Here is a press conference that I posted back in July 2020 with one of the many denials that went on.. From our elected officials to our health officials - That is the "they"

Question: My next question is a COVID question and maybe Dr. Varma can weigh in as well. Are you baffled, surprised, can you explain the fact that there's been no measurable uptick from Phase One, Phase Two, Phase Three, given the massive increase in the number of cases in other states and a loosely enforced quarantine at best, do you think there's some kind of herd immunity taking root in New York City, New York State that explains the level of transmission at this point, and if Dr. Varma could weigh in as well?

Mayor: I'll start and turn to Dr. Varma very quickly. Andrew, it's a great question. I just remind you New Yorkers learned powerful lessons, and then they really owned those lessons in terms of wearing face coverings, in terms of social distancing. We have to look at how much discipline and focus there has been, how much unity there's been in New York City, which we did not see in the other parts of the country that have had the problems. A lot of precautions put in place. People have been really devoted, putting up those hand sanitizer stands, all sorts of things that have helped to keep people safe, and then the Test and Trace Corps, huge x-factor to have that constant presence out there working with people, making sure they're safe, making sure they have what they need, obviously massive testing. We're up to 40,000 tests a day now. That's something a lot of other places have not been able to achieve. I think all of these pieces are contributing to why you see sustained progress. Take it away, Dr. Varma.

Senior Advisor Jay Varma: Yeah. Thank you very much for the question. I concur entirely with actually the Mayor's assessment. I think it would be incorrect to attribute the current status of cases to immunity, because there's a lot that we don't know about immunity and there's also what we know, which is that the vast majority of New Yorkers actually weren't infected. So the most likely explanations for our current situation are as the Mayor pointed out the combination of our defensive strategies, physical distancing, wearing face covers, good hygiene, and as the Mayor also pointed out importantly, the offensive strategies, a massive increase in the amount of testing that's going on and testing that's tied to identifying contacts and safely separating cases and contacts.

Mayor: I don't, I may have missed it. You speak to the herd immunity question?

Senior Advisor Varma: Yes, Mr. Mayor. Yes, I mentioned, I think that immunity is a very unlikely explanation for this because we know that the vast majority of New Yorkers actually weren't infected, and so we're not nearly at a level where we would expect that immunity would play a major role in decreasing transmission. There's still far too many New Yorkers who are susceptible. Thank you doctor.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 04:28:44 PM by 4yourinfo »

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2022, 04:35:48 PM »
::) You couldn't have picked better quotes to prove his point if you tried.

Offline aygart

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2022, 04:52:59 PM »
Foggy memory? Covid?

Here is a press conference that I posted back in July 2020 with one of the many denials that went on.. From our elected officials to our health officials - That is the "they"

Question: My next question is a COVID question and maybe Dr. Varma can weigh in as well. Are you baffled, surprised, can you explain the fact that there's been no measurable uptick from Phase One, Phase Two, Phase Three, given the massive increase in the number of cases in other states and a loosely enforced quarantine at best, do you think there's some kind of herd immunity taking root in New York City, New York State that explains the level of transmission at this point, and if Dr. Varma could weigh in as well?

Mayor: I'll start and turn to Dr. Varma very quickly. Andrew, it's a great question. I just remind you New Yorkers learned powerful lessons, and then they really owned those lessons in terms of wearing face coverings, in terms of social distancing. We have to look at how much discipline and focus there has been, how much unity there's been in New York City, which we did not see in the other parts of the country that have had the problems. A lot of precautions put in place. People have been really devoted, putting up those hand sanitizer stands, all sorts of things that have helped to keep people safe, and then the Test and Trace Corps, huge x-factor to have that constant presence out there working with people, making sure they're safe, making sure they have what they need, obviously massive testing. We're up to 40,000 tests a day now. That's something a lot of other places have not been able to achieve. I think all of these pieces are contributing to why you see sustained progress. Take it away, Dr. Varma.

Senior Advisor Jay Varma: Yeah. Thank you very much for the question. I concur entirely with actually the Mayor's assessment. I think it would be incorrect to attribute the current status of cases to immunity, because there's a lot that we don't know about immunity and there's also what we know, which is that the vast majority of New Yorkers actually weren't infected. So the most likely explanations for our current situation are as the Mayor pointed out the combination of our defensive strategies, physical distancing, wearing face covers, good hygiene, and as the Mayor also pointed out importantly, the offensive strategies, a massive increase in the amount of testing that's going on and testing that's tied to identifying contacts and safely separating cases and contacts.

Mayor: I don't, I may have missed it. You speak to the herd immunity question?

Senior Advisor Varma: Yes, Mr. Mayor. Yes, I mentioned, I think that immunity is a very unlikely explanation for this because we know that the vast majority of New Yorkers actually weren't infected, and so we're not nearly at a level where we would expect that immunity would play a major role in decreasing transmission. There's still far too many New Yorkers who are susceptible. Thank you doctor.



How is your english? He said how there is a lot we don't know so that means he said we know? Seriously?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline 4yourinfo

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2022, 04:57:37 PM »
::) You couldn't have picked better quotes to prove his point if you tried.
Go through the full conversation where @aygart claims they always believed in immunity just didn't know how long it was going to last due to evolving strains..

Offline aygart

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2022, 05:00:39 PM »
Go through the full conversation where @aygart claims they always believed in immunity just didn't know how long it was going to last due to evolving strains..

How is your english?
Evolving strains was only the second point. LOL
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline 4yourinfo

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2022, 05:22:05 PM »
How is your english? He said how there is a lot we don't know so that means he said we know? Seriously?
He is denying immunity - the question was is immunity playing a role in the decline of covid cases - answer was no - make all your shtiklach Torah on the words etc.
That was the question and answer in short.

Offline aygart

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2022, 05:58:18 PM »
He is denying immunity - the question was is immunity playing a role in the decline of covid cases - answer was no - make all your shtiklach Torah on the words etc.
That was the question and answer in short.
How would that be saying that there is no immunity? He said that the decline at the time can't be attributed to that. This was shown true by subsequent rises in cases.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2022, 04:20:14 AM »
My father got COVID in April. When he tested for antibodies, the doctor there said it was the highest she had ever seen.
My father asked her, "So, am I immune?"
She told him, "All we know is that RIGHT NOW, you are immune from THIS STRAIN. It tells us nothing about tomorrow and nothing about other strains."
Quote from: Alexsei
You can't fight intolerance with intolerance.

Offline Alexsei

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2022, 07:37:35 AM »
My father got the FLU in April. When he tested for antibodies, the doctor there said it was the highest she had ever seen.
My father asked her, "So, am I immune?"
She told him, "All we know is that RIGHT NOW, you are immune from THIS STRAIN. It tells us nothing about tomorrow and nothing about other strains."
This sounds like a real pandemic!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 07:45:39 AM by Alexsei »
︽ R ≈ 0.19764 🔃 09/18

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2022, 08:23:20 AM »
Foggy memory? Covid?


You literally bolded the parts that prove you wrong. This is amazing. It's like watching a play in sports where two people are watching the exact same thing and coming to opposite conclusions based on their fandom.

Offline 4yourinfo

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2022, 10:13:24 AM »
How would that be saying that there is no immunity? He said that the decline at the time can't be attributed to that. This was shown true by subsequent rises in cases.
Fact is if immunity works than there would be less cases out there - How can you completely deny immunity to any decline in cases? Unless you at that point do not want to recognize immunity which is what they were doing..

Offline 4yourinfo

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2022, 10:14:35 AM »
You literally bolded the parts that prove you wrong. This is amazing. It's like watching a play in sports where two people are watching the exact same thing and coming to opposite conclusions based on their fandom.
I bolded the parts where they are denying that immunity is any factor in rates going down

Offline 4yourinfo

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2022, 10:26:52 AM »
Remember, thousands of people got covid and they were trying to keep things locked up - reality was nobody was getting covid again and people wanted an end to all the restrictions if they had covid/immunity - the government had to keep the restrictions in place and the only way to do that was to outright deny immunity by saying we just don't know if you develop immunity... It was only months later that they changed their tune to immunity may wear off 3 months than 6 months than not for developing strains..

Offline aygart

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2022, 10:28:18 AM »
Fact is if immunity works than there would be less cases out there - How can you completely deny immunity to any decline in cases? Unless you at that point do not want to recognize immunity which is what they were doing..
Which words of "don't know", unlikely, or "major role" don't you understand?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Are there any lessons for next time?
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2022, 10:30:04 AM »
Fact is if immunity works than there would be less cases out there - How can you completely deny immunity to any decline in cases? Unless you at that point do not want to recognize immunity which is what they were doing..
I bolded the parts where they are denying that immunity is any factor in rates going down
This is some major selective reading comprehension. The question, and therefore the response, was about herd immunity. Both the question and answer both implicitly acknowledge the existence of some post infection immunity, as well as the possibility of herd immunity. The question was whether at the macro level herd immunity was responsible for bringing down infection numbers. The answer was that not enough people had been infected to reach any sort of threshold for herd immunity.

Now you can argue about whether or not we were really undercounting infections in a meaningful way the whole time, and whether that possibly meant that herd immunity was a significant factor at that point, but that's a completely separate discussion from whether they were denying the medical scientific concept of post infection immunity altogether.