Author Topic: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"  (Read 12035 times)

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #160 on: October 01, 2022, 08:47:44 PM »
So now youíre saying itís only relevant to discussion about some DE products?
I think I explained very clearly why the second reason is of absolute relevance to the CS debate.
Or again you want to extrapolate from a very distinct case with multiple mitigating factors into a general rule?
Why do you keep saying ďmultiple factorsĒ? There is one other reason that is given which I incidentally am pointing out is very  applicable to the general q of DE.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 25K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31354
  • Total likes: 8222
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #161 on: October 02, 2022, 07:34:27 AM »
I think I explained very clearly why the second reason is of absolute relevance to the CS debate.Why do you keep saying ďmultiple factorsĒ? There is one other reason that is given which I incidentally am pointing out is very  applicable to the general q of DE.

Iím reading the Teshuva from the perspective that CS is problematic, otherwise there would be no question.

Itís a question about the status of pareve bread from a bakery that also bakes bread kneaded with CS. The answer given is to allow the bread based on a multitude of factors:
א:
1. The idea that milk isnít considered שמן to be מפעפע
2. The bread is נילוש
(1+2 combine as reasons the Keilim arenít problematic. But only when both are true)
ב:
1. That milk from non-Kosher animals is uncommon due to government regulations
2. Non-Kosher milk has a different appearance (ostensibly this would be readily visible in white bread vs. other products, but thatís an interpretation you can disagree with me on)
3. There is likely to be שישים to nullify the unkosher milk that is (would be?) mixed in

So in summary the way I read it, CS is assur hence the question, and the decision to permit the pareve bread (not CS) was only based on the combination of all of the reasons given in both א and ב. At least one of the reasons given (נילוש and arguably also color) is specific to the bakery situation and allowing different pareve breads that at most came in contact with an oven and utensils that touched other breads that had CS kneaded into the dough.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #162 on: October 02, 2022, 08:27:33 AM »
Iím reading the Teshuva from the perspective that CS is problematic, otherwise there would be no question.

Itís a question about the status of pareve bread from a bakery that also bakes bread kneaded with CS. The answer given is to allow the bread based on a multitude of factors:
א:
1. The idea that milk isnít considered שמן to be מפעפע
2. The bread is נילוש
(1+2 combine as reasons the Keilim arenít problematic. But only when both are true)
ב:
1. That milk from non-Kosher animals is uncommon due to government regulations
2. Non-Kosher milk has a different appearance (ostensibly this would be readily visible in white bread vs. other products, but thatís an interpretation you can disagree with me on)
3. There is likely to be שישים to nullify the unkosher milk that is (would be?) mixed in

So in summary the way I read it, CS is assur hence the question, and the decision to permit the pareve bread (not CS) was only based on the combination of all of the reasons given in both א and ב. At least one of the reasons given (נילוש and arguably also color) is specific to the bakery situation and allowing different pareve breads that at most came in contact with an oven and utensils that touched other breads that had CS kneaded into the dough.
In reason ב , number 2 and 3 are simply reasons why חלב עכום in general isnít really a דאורריתא problem. This is something IIRC is pointed out by the Shach in קטו. The author is explaining why they are comfortable using the פרי חדש at least in regards to the כלים. Because the whole issue of חלב עכום in Prague isnít a big deal.
So there are only two reasons given to be matir the bread. One that the חלב עכום never effected the כלים at all. Two that even if it did and the bread was affected, חלב סתם in Prague is not a problem.
The fact the the bread is pareve (which is only true after א) doesnít mean at all that the חלב isnít being directly addressed in ב.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 25K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31354
  • Total likes: 8222
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #163 on: October 02, 2022, 08:46:07 AM »
In reason ב , number 2 and 3 are simply reasons why חלב עכום in general isnít really a דאורריתא problem. This is something IIRC is pointed out by the Shach in קטו. The author is explaining why they are comfortable using the פרי חדש at least in regards to the כלים. Because the whole issue of חלב עכום in Prague isnít a big deal.
So there are only two reasons given to be matir the bread. One that the חלב עכום never effected the כלים at all. Two that even if it did and the bread was affected, חלב סתם in Prague is not a problem.
The fact the the bread is pareve (which is only true after א) doesnít mean at all that the חלב isnít being directly addressed in ב.

I see how youíre reading it, though I donít think the text/wording supports your version. Youíre imposing a whole lot of subtext that isnít there at all.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #164 on: October 02, 2022, 09:14:18 AM »
I see how youíre reading it
I honestly donít know another way to read it.
I donít think the text/wording supports your version. Youíre imposing a whole lot of subtext that isnít there at all.
Disagree.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #165 on: October 02, 2022, 10:03:28 AM »
In reason ב , number 2 and 3 are simply reasons why חלב עכום in general isnít really a דאורריתא problem. This is something IIRC is pointed out by the Shach in קטו.
קי״ח סק״ח