Author Topic: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"  (Read 12028 times)

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 4096
  • Total likes: 854
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2022, 12:00:30 PM »
probably means cholov ha-companies

+1. And also, PA is really pas palter in this context.

Offline jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 13881
  • Total likes: 6730
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 29367
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2022, 12:10:13 PM »
On this note, https://www.dansdeals.com/more/free-stuff/today-roundup-stores-free-coffee-national-coffee-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1591515

Can someone walk me through the logic of being makpid on something only during AY"T?

If it's something that's right to do, why not do it year-round? Or at least when you're in a location where it's not burdensome to keep?
If it's something that isn't necessary, why is it necessary during AY"T?
If it's something you're doing teshuva for, how does saying you'll only do teshuva for it during these 10 days help? Are we trying to confuse the Satan? Or
I think there are 2 points here to breakdown.

1. Doing more Jewish stuff during AY"T.

2. The whole concept of PY & CY.

I think separating them into separate discussions would help understand what you are asking more.

Because... I am sure you are familiar with the concept of being more makpid on different things at different times. We talk nicer in teffilin, focus more on Hashem during davening, daven better on yom kipur than Wednesday evening, etc. Even though all of these things would be amazing to do all the time.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8940
  • Total likes: 4141
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: &quot;Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva&quot;
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2022, 12:40:16 PM »
Not sure about the logic of being makpid on CY, but PY is a chumra. The idea of being careful about chumras is either because at a time of closeness to Hashem, one acts differently, just as you act differently when in presence of a king.
Also, we are essentially saying that even though it is too difficult for us to stay on a level of keeping chumros the whole year, this is really the level we would like to be on and what we strive for.
Incidentally, it is a halacha in shulchan aruch to be makpid on PY during aseres yemei teshuva, not sure about the reference to "those who are makpid."

This is how I understand it.

I will add that the only "pure" chumra that we have is PY, it is halachically 100% permissible, but there's a concept of being stringent on PY during AYT to get closer to Hashem. CY and other chumras are considered 100% assur to some/many poskim, even if the poskim side with the mattirim, some people decide to be machmir. But that has nothing to do with AYT. And if their posek says its assur, then its assur year round.
Visibly Jewish

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 4096
  • Total likes: 854
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: &quot;Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva&quot;
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2022, 12:55:21 PM »
CY and other chumras are considered 100% assur to some/many poskim, even if the poskim side with the mattirim, some people decide to be machmir. But that has nothing to do with AYT. And if their posek says its assur, then its assur year round.
If someone holds by matirim all year round, it's pretty pashut that there's an inyan to be machmir during AY"T (ie kal v'chomer from PY, which is 'more mutar' m'ikar hadin).

Offline iwlw2

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 253
  • Total likes: 188
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2022, 12:57:58 PM »
Going to offer two ways of understanding this halacha which does sure need explanation, and I apologize in advance for the length.
One is along the lines of what was said before but I once heard the following mashal which brings it out. A friend of mine told me he was once getting a ride with someone who was always very careful to drive 2 miles under the speed limit (we all know someone like that....). As they're driving up the GSP and the driver is of course going 63, all of as sudden they notice a cop parked on the side of the road running a speed trap. Instinctively the driver put his foot on the brake to slow down.... Even if you are driving within the speed limit, when you see a cop you slow down. Thats how we feel during this time of mishpat, even if there are areas in which we're ok such as pas palter which we can rely on, we feel the seriousness of the din so we slow down.
Secondly, I personally understand it best with the following story, there was a chassid of the Rebbe Rashab who worked in a bank in Saint Petersburg during the week and came back to Lubavitch for Shabbos. During the week he was of course dressed to the nines, 3 piece suit, top hat and coat etc., but for Shabbos he dressed in the simple clothing of the other chassidim in Lubavitch. One week he thought to himself "who am I fooling, I dress a certain way all week, I will dress that way on Shabbos as well". After Shabbos the Rebbe called him in and said "Until now, I thought that you are who you are in Lubavitch and you're fooling them in Peterburg, now I see that you are who you are in Peterburg and you're fooling us here in Lubavitch". The moral of the story: Evry person puts on "different clothing" so to speak in different times in their lives, based on the environment, surroundings, what he's trying to accomplish etc. Who's to say that who we really are is not the person we are during the Aseres Yemei Teshuva with all the extra chumros and hiddurim, and the rest of the year we are fooling the Yetzer Hara by "dressing" differently?
Lchaim!

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8940
  • Total likes: 4141
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: &quot;Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva&quot;
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2022, 01:20:33 PM »
If someone holds by matirim all year round, it's pretty pashut that there's an inyan to be machmir during AY"T (ie kal v'chomer from PY, which is 'more mutar' m'ikar hadin).

There are endless amounts of chumras that can be kept. There's only one that chazal told us to keep on AYT. While it's nice to add other chumras, we don't make up kal vechomer's to create new halachos. If someone wants to take on one chumra during AYT, it would be PY no questions asked.
Visibly Jewish

Offline yitzgar

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 3235
  • Total likes: 1350
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: &quot;Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva&quot;
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2022, 01:27:05 PM »
There are endless amounts of chumras that can be kept. There's only one that chazal told us to keep on AYT. While it's nice to add other chumras, we don't make up kal vechomer's to create new halachos. If someone wants to take on one chumra during AYT, it would be PY no questions asked.
As mentioned before, I don't think PY during ayt is optional, but I agree with the rest

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7582
  • Total likes: 4020
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: &quot;Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva&quot;
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2022, 01:53:27 PM »
This is how I understand it.

I will add that the only "pure" chumra that we have is PY, it is halachically 100% permissible, but there's a concept of being stringent on PY during AYT to get closer to Hashem.
Not according to the Rambam. There are plenty of Rishonim/Acharonim who hold itís assur, the SA seems to go líchumra, and in fact there is no clear source from the Bavli that itís mutar (Tosafosí basis for permitting PP is from the fact that their own community was meikel, and many quote the Yerushalmi).

See Ritva on AZ 35: for a fascinating way to learn the kula of PP into the Bavli.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7582
  • Total likes: 4020
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: &quot;Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva&quot;
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2022, 01:56:01 PM »
There are endless amounts of chumras that can be kept. There's only one that chazal told us to keep on AYT. While it's nice to add other chumras, we don't make up kal vechomer's to create new halachos. If someone wants to take on one chumra during AYT, it would be PY no questions asked.
Not so simple. The mekor for PY during AYT is the Tur quoting the Yerushalmi that one should be careful about Tumos and Taharos during AYT and then quoting the Raavya that we should abide by this ruling and be extra careful during AYT specifically about Pas. As I quoted earlier Rí Tendler seems to believe Rí Moshe felt it better to be careful about CY during AYT as well.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7582
  • Total likes: 4020
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2022, 02:20:37 PM »
The Aruch Hashulchan brings down the Yerushalmi and Raavya and writes

ונראה לעניות דעתי דזה אינו אלא בדברים שאין בהם איסור מן הדין, דבזה אינו אלא הידור בעלמא, ונכון להדר זה בימים אלו. אבל דברים שיש פוסקים לאיסור מן הדין, אלא שנוהגים על דעת דעת המתירין, כמו חדש בחוץ לארץ, או בשר בלא סירכה, וכיוצא בזה Ė אי אפשר לנהוג כן בעשרת ימי תשובה. דכיון שאין אוכלין בימים אלו Ė הרי זה כקבלו עליהם דיעות האוסרים. ואם כן איך יאכלו אחר כך?(עיין מגן אברהם דבפת של אינו יהודי Ė יזהר לכל הפחות בהשלכת קיסם. ויזהרו שלא ליטול חלה מעיסת אינו יהודי. ומה שכתב במי שהולך בדרך וכו', עיין שם Ė צריך עיון. ואשה שמצאה ילד מת אצלה Ė יש לה לקבל תשובה. ומי ששלח שליח, ונהרג בדרך, גם כן Ė כן, עיין שם. ומעיקר הדין יש לפקפק, ובארנו במקום אחר. ודייק ותמצא קל.)

(Paraphrasing) ďItís important to only be makpid on things which are chumros and not things which are a real machlokes meíikar hadin because if you hold like those who say itís assur what changes afterwardsĒ (as @Dan insinuated).

So similar to what @yuneeq was saying, the only issue that needs to be sorted out is why is Pas like that more than Chalav, or Chalav more than other things.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2022, 02:22:42 PM »



Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2022, 02:26:23 PM »
So similar to what @yuneeq was saying, the only issue that needs to be sorted out is why is Pas like that more than Chalav, or Chalav more than other things.
Because even though פת פלטר is absolutely מותר מעיקר הדין wherever that applies depends on askanazi or sefardi, the גמרא explicitly recognizes a מידת חסידות to be מחמיר.
This cannot be said for most halachik issues. If you accept it is mutar, itís mutar and thatís that.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2022, 02:30:23 PM »
Rav Zvi Soblofsky (a young Posek, who is a Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshiva University) offers an interesting explanation for the practice to avoid Pat Palter during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.  Rav Soblofsky notes that it is clear from the sources we have cited that the Pat Akum decree was not completely rescinded.  It was only rescinded in situations when it was quite difficult for most Jews to implement.  He suggests that just as the Pat Akum decree was not rescinded regarding home baked bread of a Nochri, so too it was not rescinded for the Aseret Yemei Teshuva, since it is not an excessive burden for most people to adhere to the Pat Akum decree only during these days.
This is a massive chiddush which is unsubstantiated so itís certainly לפלפולא בעלמא and not להלכה.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2022, 02:34:28 PM »
Is it an excessive burden for any of us to keep P"Y or C"Y when we're home in 2022? It seems people cling onto heterim that should have gone by the wayside along with an era when things were very different.
Because it was an excessive burden back then, the גזירה wasnít accepted. Wether or not itís excessive now has no bearings on this. We donít make talmudic גזירות these days.

Offline coffeebean

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2018
  • Posts: 3069
  • Total likes: 829
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2022, 02:35:59 PM »
This reminds me of not sending out shidduch pictures after the Lag Baomer tragedy.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2022, 02:39:26 PM »
Thatís a solid question and one of the reasons many of us are indeed makpid. Many hold that when itís not an excessive burden itís mandatory.
I suppose you mean the shita of the mechaber and the shach who advocates to be machmir. But even to those opinions the גזירה wouldnít apply to various scenarios, and during עשרת ימי תשובה we are completely machmir even if those conditions are met.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7582
  • Total likes: 4020
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2022, 02:43:53 PM »
This is a massive chiddush which is unsubstantiated so itís certainly לפלפולא בעלמא and not להלכה.
He brings a very reasonable Raya from Rí Saadia Gaon, so I wouldnít consider it unsubstantiated. Itís certainly a big chidush.
I was going to bring the Levush as well. This is a nice piece with good sources
Because even though פת פלטר is absolutely מותר מעיקר הדין wherever that applies depends on askanazi or sefardi, the גמרא explicitly recognizes a מידת חסידות to be מחמיר.
This cannot be said for most halachik issues. If you accept it is mutar, itís mutar and thatís that.
Sorry, what do you mean? The Rambam and others disagree and hold itís Assur. Furthermore, the Gemara isnít clear about this, since from a simple reading it was totally assur in the times of the Gemara. If anything you need to answer how Ayvu was able to eat PA (or possibly PP), not why they were machmir. Are you referring to another Gemara?
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline yelped

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 11810
  • Total likes: 4355
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 43
    • View Profile
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2022, 02:46:32 PM »
The JS board has definitely gotten an upgrade over AYT.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7582
  • Total likes: 4020
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2022, 02:47:47 PM »
I suppose you mean the shita of the mechaber and the shach who advocates to be machmir. But even to those opinions the גזירה wouldnít apply to various scenarios, and during עשרת ימי תשובה we are completely machmir even if those conditions are met.
The Gemara explicitly says *if* there would be a heter it would apply when itís difficult to find other bread. SA, Rama, Shach, Rí Moshe etc. bring down qualifiers to this rule, and the Chelkas Binyomin for example believes even a lower price would not be enough to satisfy the ďsuperior breadĒ requirement.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2469
  • Total likes: 2368
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2022, 02:55:32 PM »
He brings a very reasonable Raya from Rí Saadia Gaon, so I wouldnít consider it unsubstantiated. Itís certainly a big chidush.I was going to bring the Levush as well.
Itís unsubstantiated in the context of פת פלתר. Itís not a ďproofĒ from Rav Sadddia Gaon. By all means the concept can be true there.
Sorry, what do you mean? The Rambam and others disagree and hold itís Assur. Furthermore, the Gemara isnít clear about this, since from a simple reading it was totally assur in the times of the Gemara. If anything you need to answer how Ayvu was able to eat PA (or possibly PP), not why they were machmir. Are you referring to another Gemara?
This depends on which pshat in the Rishonim you go with. For example according to the Ran our Gemara is in line with the Yerushalmi.
The Rambam is stringent on פת בעל הבית not פת פלתר!