Author Topic: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"  (Read 12030 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2022, 02:56:23 PM »
The Gemara explicitly says *if* there would be a heter it would apply when it’s difficult to find other bread. SA, Rama, Shach, R’ Moshe etc. bring down qualifiers to this rule, and the Chelkas Binyomin for example believes even a lower price would not be enough to satisfy the “superior bread” requirement.
So even when it’s difficult to find it’s assur during עשרת ימי תשובה.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2022, 03:04:27 PM »
So even when it’s difficult to find it’s assur during עשרת ימי תשובה.
The only exception to this is a הולך בדרך for whom even the higher level מי שנזהר כל השנה is permitted as outlined at the end of Y’d 112.

Online yuneeq

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2022, 03:09:28 PM »
As mentioned before, I don't think PY during ayt is optional, but I agree with the rest

I didn't say that it's optional.

Because even though פת פלטר is absolutely מותר מעיקר הדין wherever that applies depends on askanazi or sefardi, the גמרא explicitly recognizes a מידת חסידות to be מחמיר.
This cannot be said for most halachik issues. If you accept it is mutar, it’s mutar and that’s that.

This sounds like how I learned it, starting to bring back my memory. Though if I'm not mistaken, we only see this מידת חסידות only for PY, and not other issues.
Visibly Jewish

Online EliJelly

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2022, 03:15:38 PM »
According to many (most?), CY is also a chumra. Certainly according to R’ Tendler who I quoted above, who was somech on R’ Moshe who definitely held it was a chumra but not me’ikar hadin (as he felt his heter applied equally to those who hold like the Chasam Sofer).

The Aruch Hashulchan brings down the Yerushalmi and Raavya and writes

ונראה לעניות דעתי דזה אינו אלא בדברים שאין בהם איסור מן הדין, דבזה אינו אלא הידור בעלמא, ונכון להדר זה בימים אלו. אבל דברים שיש פוסקים לאיסור מן הדין, אלא שנוהגים על דעת דעת המתירין, כמו חדש בחוץ לארץ, או בשר בלא סירכה, וכיוצא בזה – אי אפשר לנהוג כן בעשרת ימי תשובה. דכיון שאין אוכלין בימים אלו – הרי זה כקבלו עליהם דיעות האוסרים. ואם כן איך יאכלו אחר כך?(עיין מגן אברהם דבפת של אינו יהודי – יזהר לכל הפחות בהשלכת קיסם. ויזהרו שלא ליטול חלה מעיסת אינו יהודי. ומה שכתב במי שהולך בדרך וכו', עיין שם – צריך עיון. ואשה שמצאה ילד מת אצלה – יש לה לקבל תשובה. ומי ששלח שליח, ונהרג בדרך, גם כן – כן, עיין שם. ומעיקר הדין יש לפקפק, ובארנו במקום אחר. ודייק ותמצא קל.)

(Paraphrasing) “It’s important to only be makpid on things which are chumros and not things which are a real machlokes me’ikar hadin because if you hold like those who say it’s assur what changes afterwards” (as @Dan insinuated).

So similar to what @yuneeq was saying, the only issue that needs to be sorted out is why is Pas like that more than Chalav, or Chalav more than other things.

Just came here to post that according to this ערוך השלחן being makpid on CY during עשי׳׳ת can actually be problematic, since most poskim actually do agree that it's NOT just a chumra, it's assur מעיקר הדין and they did not accept Reb Moshe's Kula, in particular בדעת החת׳׳ס that it was נאסר במנין בכל מקום ובכל זמן.

R' Tendler saying it's just a chumra is irrelevant as he probably wasn't giving any validity to the majority of poskim who were opposing his shver's psak.

This would create an interesting situation that those who rely on Reb Moshe should not be machmir on עשי׳׳ת with CY, but we gotta get a clear ruling first if we go by this ערוך השלחן that whenever there is a מחלוקת הפוסקים מדינא one should not be machmir on עשי׳׳ת. It seems to be a big chidush.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2022, 03:18:23 PM »
Just came here to post that according to this ערוך השלחן being makpid on CY during עשי׳׳ת can actually be problematic, since most poskim actually do agree that it's NOT just a chumra, it's assur מעיקר הדין and they did not accept Reb Moshe's Kula, in particular בדעת החת׳׳ס that it was נאסר במנין בכל מקום ובכל זמן.
Really now? Not interested in getting involved right now but not letting this pass.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2022, 03:21:02 PM »
but we gotta get a clear ruling first if we go by this ערוך השלחן that whenever there is a מחלוקת הפוסקים מדינא one should not be machmir on עשי׳׳ת. It seems to be a big chidush.
It’s perhaps a chiddush to saw specifically not to be machmir, but his general explanation isn’t מחודש. It’s pashut pshat.

Online EliJelly

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2022, 03:21:56 PM »
Really now? Not interested in getting involved right now but not letting this pass.

Just start with Reb Moshe's contemporaries who have actually written on this, of course there was plenty of American Litvishe gedolim big enough in their own respect who were relying on Reb Moshe.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2022, 03:27:15 PM »
Just start with Reb Moshe's contemporaries who have actually written on this, of course there was plenty of American Litvishe gedolim big enough in their own respect who were relying on Reb Moshe.
Just start with the פרי חדש and work down and tally the score in the achronim. Then we can tell Rav Moshes contemporaries that they are big enough in their own respect but they’re up against most poskim.
Btw Rav Moshes heter was condoned by no less than the נודע ביהודה.
Anyway not for now.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2022, 03:37:38 PM »
Just start with the פרי חדש and work down and tally the score in the achronim. Then we can tell Rav Moshes contemporaries that they are big enough in their own respect but they’re up against most poskim.
Btw Rav Moshes heter was condoned by no less than the נודע ביהודה.
Anyway not for now.

Even a layman knows of this פרי חדש but also knows that it wasn't widely accepted. If you have a large amount of poskim agreeing to רדב׳׳ז והפר׳׳ח you may want to just post the מ׳׳מ here to make that case.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2022, 03:39:16 PM »
Even a laymen knows of this פרי חדש but also knows that it wasn't widely accepted. If you have a large amount of poskim agreeing to רדב׳׳ז והפר׳׳ח you may want to just post the מ׳׳מ here to make that case.
Not interested in getting involved right now.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2022, 05:13:33 PM »

What a letdown. :)

When you're ready, please start a new thread for this (unless there's an existing thread for CY/CS already).

Offline S209

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2022, 07:50:15 PM »
The Rambam is stringent on פת בעל הבית not פת פלתר!
Are you saying this based on his “Yesh Mekomos” in Ma’achalos Asuros 17:12? It would appear that his psak in 17:9 is inclusive of this yesh mekomos and in fact he holds pas palter is assur.
Even a layman knows of this פרי חדש but also knows that it wasn't widely accepted. If you have a large amount of poskim agreeing to רדב׳׳ז והפר׳׳ח you may want to just post the מ׳׳מ here to make that case.
Pri Toar and Pri Chodesh write explicitly that they ate Chalav Akum based on the heter. The Steipler in Kreina D’igrisa says the Chazon Ish (who writes lehokel based on the Pri Chodosh) was matir CS during the war based on this. Many poskim write similarly, in fact R’ Moshe gave two reasons lehokel, one (mirsas) like the Pri Chodosh and only in the other one (anan sahadi) does he say even the Chasam Sofer would agree with his logic. It appears it was based on location, some communities accepted it and some didn’t (Sdei Chemed and Darkei Teshuva list communities that didn’t accept it).
Just came here to post that according to this ערוך השלחן being makpid on CY during עשי׳׳ת can actually be problematic, since most poskim actually do agree that it's NOT just a chumra, it's assur מעיקר הדין and they did not accept Reb Moshe's Kula, in particular בדעת החת׳׳ס that it was נאסר במנין בכל מקום ובכל זמן.

R' Tendler saying it's just a chumra is irrelevant as he probably wasn't giving any validity to the majority of poskim who were opposing his shver's psak.

This would create an interesting situation that those who rely on Reb Moshe should not be machmir on עשי׳׳ת with CY, but we gotta get a clear ruling first if we go by this ערוך השלחן that whenever there is a מחלוקת הפוסקים מדינא one should not be machmir on עשי׳׳ת. It seems to be a big chidush.
In fact the Aruch Hashulchan is one of the major poskim who hold like the Chasam Sofer (along with the Chochmas Adam) although he has somewhat different reasoning. He brings down a story about a fellow from his community who, relying on the fact that there were no non kosher animals milked locally, was served milk mixed with animal brains, and exhorts people to be careful with divrei Chazal.

As to your point- the Chasam Sofer makes mention of this in his famous psak where he says Chalav Stam is totally assur afilu batul ta’am lo batul gezeira. He makes note of the fact that most of Kehilas Ashkenaz is (was then) noheg lehachmir, and says if you hold like him it’s assur derabanan and sfeiko lekula, but if are in Kehilas Ashkenaz and you hold like the Pri Chadash it’s considered a neder and it’s assur min hatorah so sfeiko lechumra! (I just want to point out though that several friends of mine learned by R’ Nota Greenblatt in Tennessee and he told them beshem R’ Moshe they don’t need to be matir neder to drink CS in Memphis as their whole hakpada on CY was based on the fact that they live in town).

I have heard some opine that R’ Moshe was giving an after the fact heter based on the observable fact that most Americans drank CS, and therefore it was minhag hamakom to rely on the PC.
What a letdown. :)

When you're ready, please start a new thread for this (unless there's an existing thread for CY/CS already).
If you’d like I can try to write up a basic summary of CY- from the Gemara down to modern day poskim based on the Shivti marei mekomos. It’s a relatively short contained sugya.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2022, 07:55:26 PM »
Are you saying this based on his “Yesh Mekomos” in Ma’achalos Asuros 17:12? It would appear that his psak in 17:9 is inclusive of this yesh mekomos and in fact he holds pas palter is assur.
Ok fair enough. It’s still accurate to say that להלכה it’s מותר as per the mechaber and remah לכל מר כדאית ליה.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2022, 07:58:04 PM »
What a letdown. :)

When you're ready, please start a new thread for this (unless there's an existing thread for CY/CS already).

This is actually a very covered subject with very little room for us debating. Just open a נחלת בנימין על סי׳ קטו, a דרכי תשובה or even today's sifrei likutim and see for yourself.

וכדי שלא ישאר הנייר חלק I'll quote what the Aruch h'shilchon famously write on relying on the פרי חדש.

Quote
והנה עכ"פ נתברר דלפי דעת כל רבותינו שהבאנו אפילו במקומות דלא שכיח כלל דבר טמא בעיר באופן שאין חשש לתערובת חלב טמא מ"מ אסור כשהישראל לא עמד עכ"פ מבחוץ בשעת החליבה או שיהא יוצא ונכנס ודי אפילו בקטן וקטנה ויתבאר עוד בזה מיהו עכ"פ האיסור הוא בכל אופן ודלא כאחד מגדולי האחרונים שהאריך בזה להקל לשתות חלב שלהם במקום שאין שם דבר טמא או שהוא רחוק המציאות שיחלובו את הטמא או שחלב טמא ביוקר והביא ראיה מאיזה גדולים שהקילו בכה"ג ומסיבה זו יש הרבה מתפרצים באיסור זה בדורנו בעוה"ר כאשר ראינו ושמענו ותולים א"ע באיזה ת"ח שעשה כן ולא ידעו ולא יבינו שחמורים דברי סופרים מד"ת והת"ח שעשה כן עונו ישא וכיון שנפסק לאיסור בטור וש"ע וכל גדולי אחרונים מי יוכל להעיז פניו ולמלא תאות נפשו ושומר נפשו ירחק א"ע מזה
6
וליתר שאת אברר לך איך שכל דברי רבותינו הקדושים הם כגחלי אש מה שהתוודה לפני בלב נשבר בהיותי יושב על כסא הוראה בעיר פלונית שאחד מהבע"ב החשובים דשם היה נוהג היתר בדבר בהיותו חוץ לביתו בעיר הגדולה במדינה וישב תדיר בשם לעסקיו והוא ועוד אורחים בשתותם חמים בבוקר בבוקר היו קונים חלב שמן שקורץ סמאנ"ט אצל חנוני אינו יהודי שכנגד אכסניא שלהם ופעם אחת התחילו לחקור ביניהם מאין לוקח החנוני הקטן הזה כל כך חלב שמן והלך הוא להחנוני ושאלו וא"ל החנוני אני קונה באיטליז של בשר הרבה מוח של הבהמות וממחה אותם עם הרבה חלב ומבשלם ביחד וזה הוא השמנונית אז נפלו כולם על פניהם על חטאם הגדול שאכלו טרפות ובשר בחלב והבעה"ב התודה לפני וצעק בקול כמה גדולים דברי חכמים ובאמת כך מקובלני שכל גזירת חכמים לבד טעמם הנגלה יש עוד הרבה טעמים כמוסים שלא גילו אותם והשומע ישא ברכה מאת ד' וישולם גמולו בזה ובבא [וביחוד שמעתי שבאמעריקא יש רבים מהאומות ששותים חלב חזיר מפני שמצויים שם הרבה]:

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2022, 08:00:36 PM »
This is actually a very covered subject with very little room for us debating. Just open a נחלת בנימין על סי׳ קטו, a דרכי תשובה or even today's sifrei likutim and see for yourself.

וכדי שלא ישאר הנייר חלק I'll quote what the Aruch h'shilchon famously write on relying on the פרי חדש.
Is the חזון איש worthy enough to argue? Certainly he was. He clearly outlines his understanding of the sugya.
And that’s before we factor in Rav Moshes heter.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2022, 08:04:03 PM »
Pri Toar and Pri Chodesh write explicitly that they ate Chalav Akum based on the heter.

Pri Toar?? Are you sure that he writes that he ate CA? I'm almost sure you're mistaken.
(I'm not sure you know the significance it is for a chossid when you throw in the אוה׳׳ח הקדוש to that list just like that)

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2022, 08:04:59 PM »
This is actually a very covered subject with very little room for us debating. Just open a נחלת בנימין על סי׳ קטו, a דרכי תשובה or even today's sifrei likutim and see for yourself.

וכדי שלא ישאר הנייר חלק I'll quote what the Aruch h'shilchon famously write on relying on the פרי חדש.
He brings down a story about a fellow from his community who, relying on the fact that there were no non kosher animals milked locally, was served milk mixed with animal brains, and exhorts people to be careful with divrei Chazal.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2022, 08:06:21 PM »
The fact is that Rav Moshes heter is extremely compelling logically, was shared by many Giants of Halacha, and when augmented by the פרי חדש ודעימי׳ should be rightfully recognized as the עיקר הדין. Obviously chassidesha poskim view this as sacrilegious, they come from a totally different world view.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2022, 08:09:10 PM »
Pri Toar?? Are you sure that he writes that he ate CA? I'm almost sure you're mistaken.
(I'm not sure you know the significance it is for a chossid when you throw in the אוה׳׳ח הקדוש to that list just like that)
There is no doubt he holds its mutar lechulei alma and is one of the champions of this line of reasoning, that it was never ne’esar bemakom she’ein chashash taruvos (YD 115). I will double check to make sure he writes he ate it himself.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 08:12:26 PM by S209 »
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Online EliJelly

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2022, 08:11:25 PM »
Is the חזון איש worthy enough to argue? Certainly he was. He clearly outlines his understanding of the sugya.
And that’s before we factor in Rav Moshes heter.

Come on, it's well above our pay grade to measure their gadlus. The question isn't if there is capable matirim, the discussion started if this is considered a chumra like PP or a real machlokas meiker hadin, and what the leading opinion amongst the the major poskim was.

Also, the Chaz"I never wrote that בתורת פסק.