"Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"

[Dan]

On this note, https://www.dansdeals.com/more/free-stuff/today-roundup-stores-free-coffee-national-coffee-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1591515

Can someone walk me through the logic of being makpid on something only during AY"T?

If it's something that's right to do, why not do it year-round? Or at least when you're in a location where it's not burdensome to keep?
If it's something that isn't necessary, why is it necessary during AY"T?
If it's something you're doing teshuva for, how does saying you'll only do teshuva for it during these 10 days help? Are we trying to confuse the Satan? Or

You think you are going to pull a quick one on your creator? Good luck with that one. 

[AsherO]

It’s a time when we’re being judged so we’re extra scrupulous and not reliant on heterim we use during the year.

[Dan]

It’s a time when we’re being judged so we’re extra scrupulous and not reliant on heterim we use during the year.

Sure, but are we not also judged for why we're making a hachlota that's going to last for a week rather than commit to it year-round?

If you are sitting before a judge of flesh and blood and said you won't do X for the next week and therefore request a lenient ruling, you'll be laughed out of the courtroom!

[S209]

On this note, https://www.dansdeals.com/more/free-stuff/today-roundup-stores-free-coffee-national-coffee-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1591515

Can someone walk me through the logic of being makpid on something only during AY"T?

If it's something that's right to do, why not do it year-round? Or at least when you're in a location where it's not burdensome to keep?
If it's something that isn't necessary, why is it necessary during AY"T?
If it's something you're doing teshuva for, how does saying you'll only do teshuva for it during these 10 days help? Are we trying to confuse the Satan? Or

It’s brought down in the Rishonim. Here’s an interesting thought on the topic.




The Tur (O.C. 603) cites the Jerusalem Talmud (Shabbat 3:3) that states that if one is not able throughout the year to eat food that is Tahor according to the rules of ritual purity, then one should strive to eat such food during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.  The Tur then cites the Ra’avya (an important Ashkenazic Rishon) who notes that the Ashkenazic practice is to follow in the spirit of this passage, and therefore even those who adopt the lenient approach to Pat Akum throughout the year adopt the strict view during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.

The Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 603) rules in accordance with the Ra’avyah.  Accordingly, one should obtain Pat Yisrael during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.  Moreover, the Chayei Adam 143 and the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 130:2 write that one should adopt other Chumrot (stringencies) during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva that one does not observe during the year.  For example, Rav Moshe Tendler once stated (in a Shiur at Yeshiva University in 1986) that even one who practices the lenient approach to the Chalav Yisrael issue should drink only Chalav Yisrael during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.

…….

Rav Zvi Soblofsky (a young Posek, who is a Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshiva University) offers an interesting explanation for the practice to avoid Pat Palter during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.  Rav Soblofsky notes that it is clear from the sources we have cited that the Pat Akum decree was not completely rescinded.  It was only rescinded in situations when it was quite difficult for most Jews to implement.  He suggests that just as the Pat Akum decree was not rescinded regarding home baked bread of a Nochri, so too it was not rescinded for the Aseret Yemei Teshuva, since it is not an excessive burden for most people to adhere to the Pat Akum decree only during these days.

Rav Sobolofsky similarly explains a puzzling ruling of Rav Saadia Gaon (cited by the Rosh, Yoma 8:24), that men should recite a Beracha upon immersing in a Mikva on Erev Yom Kippur (this opinion is not accepted as normative).  Rav Saadia Gaon’s ruling is difficult as we do not, generally speaking, recite a Beracha on a Minhag (custom) that emerged after the Talmudic era.  Rav Sobolofsky suggests that Rav Saadia Gaon seems to believe that the edict of Ezra (in biblical times) that a Ba’al Keri (a man who has experienced a seminal emission) must immerse in a Mikva remains in effect for Erev Yom Kippur, even though it was rescinded for the rest of the year.  Chazal (Berachot 22a) rescinded Ezra’s edict because it was too difficult for most Jews to follow (Rambam Hilchot Tefilla 4:5; but see Meiri, Berachot 22a).  However, it is not an excessive burden for most of the community to observe on Erev Yom Kippur.  Thus, Rav Saadia Gaon believes that a Beracha should be recited on the Erev Yom Kippur immersion, since the original enactment of Ezra remains in effect on that day.

https://www.koltorah.org/halachah//pat-akum-part-two-varieties-of-its-observance-and-its-application-to-the-aseret-yemei-teshuva-by-rabbi-chaim-jachter

[JoeyShmoe]

I'm assuming it has to do with what the Mechaber writes in Siman 603 Se'if 1
אף מי שאינו נזהר מפת של עכו"ם, בעשרת ימי תשובה צריך לזהר
Maybe the Pas Akum Chumra extends to Chalav Stam.

[Dan]

It’s brought down in the Rishonim. Here’s an interesting thought on the topic.




The Tur (O.C. 603) cites the Jerusalem Talmud (Shabbat 3:3) that states that if one is not able throughout the year to eat food that is Tahor according to the rules of ritual purity, then one should strive to eat such food during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.  The Tur then cites the Ra’avya (an important Ashkenazic Rishon) who notes that the Ashkenazic practice is to follow in the spirit of this passage, and therefore even those who adopt the lenient approach to Pat Akum throughout the year adopt the strict view during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.

The Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 603) rules in accordance with the Ra’avyah.  Accordingly, one should obtain Pat Yisrael during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.  Moreover, the Chayei Adam 143 and the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 130:2 write that one should adopt other Chumrot (stringencies) during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva that one does not observe during the year.  For example, Rav Moshe Tendler once stated (in a Shiur at Yeshiva University in 1986) that even one who practices the lenient approach to the Chalav Yisrael issue should drink only Chalav Yisrael during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.

…….

Rav Zvi Soblofsky (a young Posek, who is a Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshiva University) offers an interesting explanation for the practice to avoid Pat Palter during the Aseret Yemei Teshuva.  Rav Soblofsky notes that it is clear from the sources we have cited that the Pat Akum decree was not completely rescinded.  It was only rescinded in situations when it was quite difficult for most Jews to implement.  He suggests that just as the Pat Akum decree was not rescinded regarding home baked bread of a Nochri, so too it was not rescinded for the Aseret Yemei Teshuva, since it is not an excessive burden for most people to adhere to the Pat Akum decree only during these days.

Rav Sobolofsky similarly explains a puzzling ruling of Rav Saadia Gaon (cited by the Rosh, Yoma 8:24), that men should recite a Beracha upon immersing in a Mikva on Erev Yom Kippur (this opinion is not accepted as normative).  Rav Saadia Gaon’s ruling is difficult as we do not, generally speaking, recite a Beracha on a Minhag (custom) that emerged after the Talmudic era.  Rav Sobolofsky suggests that Rav Saadia Gaon seems to believe that the edict of Ezra (in biblical times) that a Ba’al Keri (a man who has experienced a seminal emission) must immerse in a Mikva remains in effect for Erev Yom Kippur, even though it was rescinded for the rest of the year.  Chazal (Berachot 22a) rescinded Ezra’s edict because it was too difficult for most Jews to follow (Rambam Hilchot Tefilla 4:5; but see Meiri, Berachot 22a).  However, it is not an excessive burden for most of the community to observe on Erev Yom Kippur.  Thus, Rav Saadia Gaon believes that a Beracha should be recited on the Erev Yom Kippur immersion, since the original enactment of Ezra remains in effect on that day.

https://www.koltorah.org/halachah//pat-akum-part-two-varieties-of-its-observance-and-its-application-to-the-aseret-yemei-teshuva-by-rabbi-chaim-jachter

Is it an excessive burden for any of us to keep P"Y or C"Y when we're home in 2022? It seems people cling onto heterim that should have gone by the wayside along with an era when things were very different.

[S209]

Is it an excessive burden for any of us to keep P"Y or C"Y when we're home in 2022?

That’s a solid question and one of the reasons many of us are indeed makpid. Many hold that when it’s not an excessive burden it’s mandatory.

(One of the heterim to rely on it brought in the Poskim is when Pas Palter is superior to your local Pas Yisroel, but perhaps we can stomach inferior bread for a week).

Even if people are going to seek out a heter for the rest of the year it should be a zechus to have a time frame when you are makpid, and no better time than AYT. The Mishna Berura also brings down from the Magen Avraham to be makpid on Shabbos and Yom Tov, so it’s not a foreign concept.

[AsherO]

Sure, but are we not also judged for why we're making a hachlota that's going to last for a week rather than commit to it year-round?

If you are sitting before a judge of flesh and blood and said you won't do X for the next week and therefore request a lenient ruling, you'll be laughed out of the courtroom!

Nah, it’s more like when you sit in the courtroom you wear your best suit and address the judge with an extra degree of respect. Not because wearing a regular suit (or pants and shirt) and addressing the judge with general/minimal respect is against the law, but you want to be on your most favorable behavior.

[yitzgar]

Not sure about the logic of being makpid on CY, but PY is a chumra. The idea of being careful about chumras is either because at a time of closeness to Hashem, one acts differently, just as you act differently when in presence of a king.
Also, we are essentially saying that even though it is too difficult for us to stay on a level of keeping chumros the whole year, this is really the level we would like to be on and what we strive for.
Incidentally, it is a halacha in shulchan aruch to be makpid on PY during aseres yemei teshuva, not sure about the reference to "those who are makpid."

[AJK]

I explained this the other day:

Imagine two people are being sentenced for a crime that they did in fact commit.

The first guy goes before the judge, and the judge looks down and sees not only has he not shaved, but his shirt is untucked, his hair is a mess, he's only wearing one shoe, and he's eating a chocolate bar, while listening to his airpods, and high-fiving his friends and winking at the female court bailiff. The judge asks him, " is there anything that you would like to share before I pass sentence?" He doesn't even hear her because he's too busy nodding his head to the latest jam. So she passes sentence.

The second guy goes before the judge, and he's dressed in a fine black suit, fully shaved, hair fully coiffed, and he enters the courtroom with respect, head slightly bowed, and when the judge asks him, " is there anything that you would like to share before I pass sentence?" he quietly launches into a well prepared and compelling monologue about admitting guilt, turning over a new leaf, and begs the court for mercy. He gets half the sentence of the first guy.

People who are more careful during A"YT are embodying the second guy. Its not a trick or a ruse, assuming one is genuine. It's simply a recognition that these days differ in kind to the days before and after it, and striving to bite off a bit more in pursuit of ratzon Hashem can only help.

ETA: bah, I see it was mentioned while I was typing.

[skyguy918]

Sure, but are we not also judged for why we're making a hachlota that's going to last for a week rather than commit to it year-round?

If you are sitting before a judge of flesh and blood and said you won't do X for the next week and therefore request a lenient ruling, you'll be laughed out of the courtroom!

It's brought down clear as day in Tur/S"A based on a Yerushalmi and early rishonim, so it's obviously not laughable, even it it requires explanation.

Is it an excessive burden for any of us to keep P"Y or C"Y when we're home in 2022? It seems people cling onto heterim that should have gone by the wayside along with an era when things were very different.

This is essentially a separate taina from your initial question - but unrelated to AY"T.

[S209]

Not sure about the logic of being makpid on CY, but PY is a chumra.

According to many (most?), CY is also a chumra. Certainly according to R’ Tendler who I quoted above, who was somech on R’ Moshe who definitely held it was a chumra but not me’ikar hadin (as he felt his heter applied equally to those who hold like the Chasam Sofer).

[AsherO]

This is essentially a separate taina from your initial question - but unrelated to AY"T.

+1 was going to post this.

[Dan]

It's brought down clear as day in Tur/S"A based on a Yerushalmi and early rishonim, so it's obviously not laughable, even it it requires explanation.

Never said it was laughable. I'm trying to understand the logic here.

[ckmk47]

According to many (most?), CY is also a chumra. Certainly according to R’ Tendler who I quoted above, who was somech on R’ Moshe who definitely held it was a chumra but not me’ikar hadin (as he felt his heter applied equally to those who hold like the Chasam Sofer).

I'm assuming it has to do with what the Mechaber writes in Siman 603 Se'if 1
אף מי שאינו נזהר מפת של עכו"ם, בעשרת ימי תשובה צריך לזהר
Maybe the Pas Akum Chumra extends to Chalav Stam.

I was taught that R' Moshe felt CY was the right way to go, and CA was acceptable in extenuating circumstances.
I was also taught that CY was different than PA, and CY wasn't supposed to be a AYT thing.
I'm not learned enough to discuss the sources, but I wanted to set out an alternate view.




Separate point:  cholov stam exists in the USA where we have strong government oversight and a strong financial incentive to not adulterate cow's milk.
It doesn't work in foreign countries as a matter of course.

[~King Lake~]

I was taught that R' Moshe felt CY was the right way to go, and CA was acceptable in extenuating circumstances.
I was also taught that CY was different than PA, and CY wasn't supposed to be a AYT thing.
I'm not learned enough to discuss the sources, but I wanted to set out an alternate view.




Separate point:  cholov stam exists in the USA where we have strong government oversight and a strong financial incentive to not adulterate cow's milk.
It doesn't work in foreign countries as a matter of course.

I know CY & CA, what is cholov stam?

[skyguy918]

I know CY & CA, what is cholov stam?

Cholov stam is the non-CY milk in the US. Cholov akum would be the milk in other countries with no government supervision. It is assur midina - no one is really discussing cholov akum.

[ushdadude]

I know CY & CA, what is cholov stam?

probably means cholov ha-companies

[voldemort]

Here is a mashal from rabbi Wachsman someone sent me that gives some insight.


What's the point? We do Teshuvah, try to grow and
take on new things. And then after Yom Kippur, it's all
over, and I'm back to my old ways.
Imagine I offered you the Chance to go on a ten day
luxury, all -expense paid cruise.
Would you join?
No one is going to say," what's the point of going on
this fully funded, luxury liner where every single whim
is given to me on a silver platter? What's it going to
to help me if after ten days , I'll be back home and
have to cook my own simple meals and make my own
bed?"
Aseres Yemei Teshuvah is a luxury vacation for my
neshamah. Give it the gift of ten days of every whim
it wants. Don't worry about the vacation ending - just
keep giving your neshamah another Mincha(gift),
another Mitzvah, another holding back from
technology pitfall, another high level choice...
Give your neshamah the opportunity of a lifetime!

[Dan]

Here is a mashal from rabbi Wachsman someone sent me that gives some insight.


What's the point? We do Teshuvah, try to grow and
take on new things. And then after Yom Kippur, it's all
over, and I'm back to my old ways.
Imagine I offered you the Chance to go on a ten day
luxury, all -expense paid cruise.
Would you join?
No one is going to say," what's the point of going on
this fully funded, luxury liner where every single whim
is given to me on a silver platter? What's it going to
to help me if after ten days , I'll be back home and
have to cook my own simple meals and make my own
bed?"
Aseres Yemei Teshuvah is a luxury vacation for my
neshamah. Give it the gift of ten days of every whim
it wants. Don't worry about the vacation ending - just
keep giving your neshamah another Mincha(gift),
another Mitzvah, another holding back from
technology pitfall, another high level choice...
Give your neshamah the opportunity of a lifetime!

I still have questions, but this I can relate to