Author Topic: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"  (Read 12159 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2022, 08:15:51 PM »
The fact is that Rav Moshes heter is extremely compelling logically
Ah yes, the one thing that we rely on the government to do well, as opposed to everything else that we wouldn't trust them for beans. :)
Never mind that the government itself says they're not looking for that.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2022, 08:17:23 PM »
The fact is that Rav Moshes heter is extremely compelling logically, was shared by many Giants of Halacha, and when augmented by the פרי חדש ודעימי׳ should be rightfully recognized as the עיקר הדין. Obviously chassidesha poskim view this as sacrilegious, they come from a totally different world view.

You can try turning this into a chassidisha inyan as much as you want, clearly you didn't take the effort to look what the major poskim write on the פרי חדש, like the תשובה מאהבה who writes that בטלה דעת הפר׳׳ח נגד כל הפוסקים, as well as the Aruch H'shilchan I quoted above. Saying that the פרי חדש is the עיקר הדין is simply ignorant.


Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2022, 08:19:51 PM »
You can try turning this into a chassidisha inyan as much as you want, clearly you didn't take the effort to look what the major poskim write on the פרי חדש, like the תשובה מאהבה who writes that בטלה דעת הפר׳׳ח נגד כל הפוסקים, as well as the Aruch H'shilchan I quoted above. Saying that the פרי חדש is the עיקר הדין is simply ignorant.
I didnít say that. I say RMFs heter augmented by the פרי חדש.

Offline S209

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2022, 08:20:51 PM »
Come on, it's well above our pay grade to measure their gadlus. The question isn't if there is capable matirim, the discussion started if this is considered a chumra like PP or a real machlokas meiker hadin, and what the leading opinion amongst the the major poskim was.

Also, the Chaz"I never wrote that בתורת פסק.
As I wrote above, the Steipler writes that the Chazon Ish was matir CS during the war.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2022, 08:22:39 PM »
I didnít say that. I say RMFs heter augmented by the פרי חדש.

Neither is

Offline S209

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2022, 08:22:58 PM »
Ah yes, the one thing that we rely on the government to do well, as opposed to everything else that we wouldn't trust them for beans. :)
Never mind that the government itself says they're not looking for that.
As a parent of children with life threatening allergies I have no problem relying on FDA certified allergen warning. Why would that be different?
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Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2022, 08:24:11 PM »
Ah yes, the one thing that we rely on the government to do well, as opposed to everything else that we wouldn't trust them for beans. :)
Never mind that the government itself says they're not looking for that.
Iím not intimately familiar with the protocols, but from those who are Iím told that their testings would absolutely pick up foreign milk, and that they is a very strong מירתת from it. And they assert that RMFs heter is as applicable today as it ever was if not more.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2022, 08:24:46 PM »
As a parent of children with life threatening allergies I have no problem relying on FDA certified allergen warning. Why would that be different?
one you can sue for trillionsÖ.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2022, 08:25:21 PM »
Neither is
But to your consternation you will not be able to back this up with any achronim.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2022, 08:25:35 PM »
As a parent of children with life threatening allergies I have no problem relying on FDA certified allergen warning. Why would that be different?

Is there a FDA warning for that as well? The government is stricter on allergies and the results of lying emerges immediately.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2022, 08:25:43 PM »
Iím not intimately familiar with the protocols, but from those who are Iím told that their testings would absolutely pick up foreign milk, and that they is a very strong מירתת from it. And they assert that RMFs heter is as applicable today as it ever was if not more.
what about the problem of triefus?

Offline S209

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2022, 08:26:16 PM »
You can try turning this into a chassidisha inyan as much as you want, clearly you didn't take the effort to look what the major poskim write on the פרי חדש, like the תשובה מאהבה who writes that בטלה דעת הפר׳׳ח נגד כל הפוסקים, as well as the Aruch H'shilchan I quoted above. Saying that the פרי חדש is the עיקר הדין is simply ignorant.
Plenty of Poskim disagree. And the ones that do all claim to be supported by their reading of the Mordechai, Rabbeinu Peretz, Rambam, etc. Itís very hard to say ďmost PoskimĒ in a hotly debated issue such as this, there are most definitely many people to rely on.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2022, 08:26:20 PM »
Ah yes, the one thing that we rely on the government to do well, as opposed to everything else that we wouldn't trust them for beans. :)
Never mind that the government itself says they're not looking for that.

I'm not as well versed on the subject halachically, but there are multiple first hand accounts of dairy farmers saying they use other milks to increase fat counts and other reasons.

Plus, in this thread it is a given that the RMF heter is only in the USA, but the facts on the ground are very different. The heter is used in many other places, places where there is no first world government health inspection system.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2022, 08:26:36 PM »
what about the problem of triefus?
There was a sefer just published which absolutely proved that itís a ספק דרבנן לקולא

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2022, 08:27:41 PM »
Plus, in this thread it is a given that the RMF heter is only in the USA, but the facts on the ground are very different. The heter is used in many other places, places where there is no first world government health inspection system.
We can agree that is a misapplication of the heter.

Offline imayid2

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Offline EliJelly

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #76 on: September 29, 2022, 08:32:13 PM »
But to your consternation you will not be able to back this up with any achronim.
Just open a נחלת בנימין על סי׳ קטו, a דרכי תשובה or even today's sifrei likutim and see for yourself.


Plenty of Poskim disagree. And the ones that do all claim to be supported by their reading of the Mordechai, Rabbeinu Peretz, Rambam, etc. Itís very hard to say ďmost PoskimĒ in a hotly debated issue such as this, there are most definitely many people to rely on.

Again, it's a regular machlokas h'poskim to say the least. Not a chumra.

The question isn't if there are capable matirim, the discussion started if this is considered a chumra like PP or a real machlokas meiker hadin, and what the leading opinion amongst the the major poskim was.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #77 on: September 29, 2022, 08:32:20 PM »
There was a sefer just published which absolutely proved that itís a ספק דרבנן לקולא

is it considered a sofak if you can find out the number ? Albeit with a lot of effort.

Offline S209

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #78 on: September 29, 2022, 08:34:39 PM »
Iím not intimately familiar with the protocols, but from those who are Iím told that their testings would absolutely pick up foreign milk, and that they is a very strong מירתת from it. And they assert that RMFs heter is as applicable today as it ever was if not more.
Iíve heard the tests are extremely sensitive.
one you can sue for trillionsÖ.
I was responding to the assertion that we donít rely on government inspections and regulations, itís totally untrue. Everybody relies on them. Furthermore if my child was allergic to camelís milk Iíd be suing just the same.
what about the problem of triefus?
Whole different issue, according to the Sefer ďCholov TreifaĒ by Rí Blumenfrucht there is no issue.
Is there a FDA warning for that as well? The government is stricter on allergies and the results of lying emerges immediately.
See above. Itís totally illegal.
I'm not as well versed on the subject halachically, but there are multiple first hand accounts of dairy farmers saying they use other milks to increase fat counts and other reasons.

Plus, in this thread it is a given that the RMF heter is only in the USA, but the facts on the ground are very different. The heter is used in many other places, places where there is no first world government health inspection system.
I highly doubt a dairy farmer in the US has admitted on the record to illegally mixing in other milk when it is illegal to label anything but 100% pure milk as such in the US. This sounds like hearsay and not a miíut hamatzui.

RMF gave his heter in the US but the Chazon Ish gave a very similar line of reasoning in EY and the Pri Chodosh said his psak in Amsterdam. Not all require the government- some of the reasons given (when applicable) are if nonkosher animals arenít milked in that location, if there is even a bit of supervision, cameras, if nonkosher milk is more expensive, etc.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #79 on: September 29, 2022, 08:38:34 PM »
Rabbi Blumenfrucht told me that his next project is to explain why Rav Moshes heter is relevant now more than ever.