Author Topic: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"  (Read 12157 times)

Offline jye

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2022, 09:58:09 PM »
And this is why so many people are at least lenient on DE. If מעיקר הדין CS would be assur they would not be able to do so as by all accounts chalav akum assers Keilim.
Usually have ששים and itís חנ״נ of a לח of שער איסורים of איסור דרבנן. No need to come on to Rav Moshe whose sevara was a tremendous chiddush and most would put it in the same category as the פרי חדש.
I believe Rav Aron Kotler did have cholov stam in BMG but donít remember if he went straight with the pri chadash since there was no viable way to obtain chalav yisroel and the minhag hamakom was to consume.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 10:04:07 PM by jye »

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #101 on: September 29, 2022, 10:03:59 PM »
Usually have ששים and itís חנ״נ of a לח of שער איסורים of איסור דרבנן. No need to come on to Rav Moshe
We are machmir on that so youíd have to come on to Rav Moshe to be מתיר לכתחילה.
whose sevara was a tremendous chiddush and most would put it in the same category as the פרי חדש.
No and no.

Offline aygart

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #102 on: September 29, 2022, 10:08:43 PM »
Iím not intimately familiar with the protocols, but from those who are Iím told that their testings would absolutely pick up foreign milk, and that they is a very strong מירתת from it. And they assert that RMFs heter is as applicable today as it ever was if not more.

That is not what the OU says.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #103 on: September 29, 2022, 10:09:13 PM »
We are machmir on that so youíd have to come on to Rav Moshe to be מתיר לכתחילה.No and no.
In Emes LeYaakov Rí Yaakov Kaminetzky brings a raya from the Rama that you can use the kelim of one who relies on Rí Moshe even if you disagree.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #104 on: September 29, 2022, 10:10:36 PM »
In Emes LeYaakov Rí Yaakov Kaminetzky brings a raya from the Rama that you can use the kelim of one who relies on Rí Moshe even if you disagree.
It isnít a perfect raya and he himself is using it because he holds מעיקר הדין like RMF IIRC. Have to check.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #105 on: September 29, 2022, 10:11:59 PM »
Rav Henkin said to be maykil on keilim because of government oversight. Itís useless to pretend that isnít the main factor.

Offline aygart

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2022, 10:12:23 PM »
As I wrote above, the Steipler writes that the Chazon Ish was matir CS during the war.

During the war? That sounds like somewhat of a sha'as hadchak.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #107 on: September 29, 2022, 10:12:57 PM »
Ah yes, the one thing that we rely on the government to do well,

That is not the reasoning of RMF.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline moko

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #108 on: September 29, 2022, 10:17:23 PM »
Are you saying this based on his ďYesh MekomosĒ in Maíachalos Asuros 17:12? It would appear that his psak in 17:9 is inclusive of this yesh mekomos and in fact he holds pas palter is assur.Pri Toar and Pri Chodesh write explicitly that they ate Chalav Akum based on the heter. The Steipler in Kreina Díigrisa says the Chazon Ish (who writes lehokel based on the Pri Chodosh) was matir CS during the war based on this. Many poskim write similarly, in fact Rí Moshe gave two reasons lehokel, one (mirsas) like the Pri Chodosh and only in the other one (anan sahadi) does he say even the Chasam Sofer would agree with his logic. It appears it was based on location, some communities accepted it and some didnít (Sdei Chemed and Darkei Teshuva list communities that didnít accept it).In fact the Aruch Hashulchan is one of the major poskim who hold like the Chasam Sofer (along with the Chochmas Adam) although he has somewhat different reasoning. He brings down a story about a fellow from his community who, relying on the fact that there were no non kosher animals milked locally, was served milk mixed with animal brains, and exhorts people to be careful with divrei Chazal.

As to your point- the Chasam Sofer makes mention of this in his famous psak where he says Chalav Stam is totally assur afilu batul taíam lo batul gezeira. He makes note of the fact that most of Kehilas Ashkenaz is (was then) noheg lehachmir, and says if you hold like him itís assur derabanan and sfeiko lekula, but if are in Kehilas Ashkenaz and you hold like the Pri Chadash itís considered a neder and itís assur min hatorah so sfeiko lechumra! (I just want to point out though that several friends of mine learned by Rí Nota Greenblatt in Tennessee and he told them beshem Rí Moshe they donít need to be matir neder to drink CS in Memphis as their whole hakpada on CY was based on the fact that they live in town).

I have heard some opine that Rí Moshe was giving an after the fact heter based on the observable fact that most Americans drank CS, and therefore it was minhag hamakom to rely on the PC.If youíd like I can try to write up a basic summary of CY- from the Gemara down to modern day poskim based on the Shivti marei mekomos. Itís a relatively short contained sugya.
Chasam sofer and chochmas Odom both hold it's davar shebiminyan but seemingly not the same gezeirah.
The chazon ish problems with the Chasam sofer don't seem to apply to the chochmas Odom. Chasam sofer seems to say it's din re'iyah which is difficult for a variety of reasons, first and foremost the Gemara by ain davar tamei b'edro. The chochmas Odom seems to say that the gezeirah is to be choshesh for a chashash rachok

Offline jye

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #109 on: September 29, 2022, 10:18:55 PM »
Usually have ששים and itís חנ״נ of a לח of שער איסורים of איסור דרבנן. No need to come on to Rav Moshe whose sevara was a tremendous chiddush
We are machmir on that so youíd have to come on to Rav Moshe to be מתיר לכתחילה.
Rabbi Yosef תאומים in SĒD 97:1 and Rabbi Feinstein in YĒD 2:34 (note the shoel was in Mexico) would beg to differ.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 10:33:51 PM by jye »

Online AsherO

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #110 on: September 29, 2022, 10:23:24 PM »
I did not highlight the conclusion, only the sevara.

Your first highlight references a conclusion, but that one is even less relevant IMHO.
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Offline jye

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #111 on: September 29, 2022, 10:25:08 PM »
We are machmir on that so youíd have to come on to Rav Moshe to be מתיר לכתחילה.No and no.
That the government metzius BECOMES ישראל ראהו. Thatís the פשטות? That is a stretch.

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #112 on: September 29, 2022, 10:26:51 PM »
It should be noted that the נודע ביהודה was the chief rabbi of Prague from 1755 (this story occurred in 1758) and that the author רב ידידיה טיאה ווייל who was the son of the קרבן נתנאל studied by him in Prague. Just so we know who these people were.

Completely irrelevant because they werenít voicing an opinion on CS. An objective reading of the text you posted shows their opinion on CS. If in their eyes CS was מעיקר הדין a non-issue then they wouldnít have had to offer all these other mitigations to rule that the non-dairy-containing bread was fine.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #113 on: September 29, 2022, 10:35:45 PM »
Rabbi Yosef תאומים in SĒD 97:1 and Rabbi Feinstein in YĒD 2:34 (note the shoel was in Mexico) would beg to differ.
But the same RMF says that if CS is assur so are the keilim.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #114 on: September 29, 2022, 10:37:09 PM »
That the government metzius BECOMES ישראל ראהו. Thatís the פשטות? That is a stretch.
That an אנן סהדי is a sufficient replacement for ישראל ראהו. Not a stretch.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #115 on: September 29, 2022, 10:40:30 PM »
Completely irrelevant because they werenít voicing an opinion on CS. An objective reading of the text you posted shows their opinion on CS. If in their eyes CS was מעיקר הדין a non-issue then they wouldnít have had to offer all these other mitigations to rule that the non-dairy-containing bread was fine.
I think itís very relevant at least for keilim which they seem completely fine with.

Offline jye

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #116 on: September 29, 2022, 10:42:36 PM »
But the same RMF says that if CS is assur so are the keilim.
Relevant to someone using that Kli lichatchilah, not to someone consuming a product already produced on those keilim as per the tzirufim above.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #117 on: September 29, 2022, 10:44:36 PM »
Relevant to someone using that Kli lichatchilah, not to someone consuming a product already produced on those keilim as per the tzirufim above.
Perhaps I would have to look it up.
Either way, that RMF is the mechudash one! Though his logic isnít necessarily a chiddush, many achronim say otherwise.

Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #118 on: September 29, 2022, 10:51:27 PM »
It isnít a perfect raya and he himself is using it because he holds מעיקר הדין like RMF IIRC. Have to check.
שלחן הלוי


Offline imayid2

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Re: "Makpid During Aseres Yimei Teshuva"
« Reply #119 on: September 29, 2022, 10:52:17 PM »
Rav Henkin said to be maykil on keilim because of government oversight. Itís useless to pretend that isnít the main factor.