Poll

Do you still support Trump?

I would vote for him in a Republican Primary
3 (6.4%)
I would not support him in a Republican Primary, but I would vote for him in a General Election if he was the nominee (regardless of who the Democrat nominee is)
18 (38.3%)
I would not support him in a Republican Primary, but I may vote for him in a General Election (if I really don't like the Democrat nominee)
22 (46.8%)
I would vote for the Democrat Party candidate in the General if Trump was the Republican nominee
4 (8.5%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition  (Read 4948 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2022, 09:30:49 PM »
I don't know about any new pretzel, but I have seen a new strawman here:
This whole thing was about your vote (an individual vote) doesn't matter.

Unless you can show a state in a presidential election where one vote made a difference then using your logic no one's individual vote matters.

Even the link you posted shows it is not a reality that one individual vote will ever matter.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2022, 09:33:10 PM »
This whole thing was about your vote (an individual vote) doesn't matter.

Unless you can show a state in a presidential election where one vote made a difference then using your logic no one's individual vote matters.

Even the link you posted shows it is not a reality that one individual vote will ever matter.

And therefore?

You like to play odds, don't you?
Do you realize that there's a difference between 1:1,000,000,000 odds and 1:70,000 odds?
How much would you invest (if at all) where the odds were 1:1,000,000,000?

Do you realize that your odds of winning the Powerball are better? And that's even if we ignore the odds of winning other significant prizes at the lottery!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 09:36:52 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2022, 09:35:16 PM »
And therefore?
I wouldn't invest in either because neither will happen in our lifetime. You trying to prove my point?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2022, 09:38:18 PM »
I wouldn't invest in either because neither will happen in our lifetime. You trying to prove my point?

So you agree with me that it's a total waste of time and effort for a New Yorker to vote in the presidential elections?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2022, 09:42:32 PM »
So you agree with me that it's a total waste of time and effort for a New Yorker to vote in the presidential elections?
No because with your logic it is a waste of time for any one person to vote anywhere. I disagree!!!

If no election has never been decided by one vote or never will then your logic says that one vote will never matter.

Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2022, 09:49:45 PM »
No because with your logic it is a waste of time for any one person to vote anywhere. I disagree!!!

Where did I say that?

I specifically said I am talking about the Presidential Election in the states of NY, NJ & CA.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2022, 10:00:37 PM »
Where did I say that?
I am saying that is what your logic leads to.

We are talking about your vote. You claim it is a waste of time in NY. It is a waste of time (your vote) no matter which state you live in. You might feel better, but that fact is "your" vote will never matter in NY or any state you live in. That is the logic you are using.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline Euclid

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2022, 11:41:07 PM »
Is this thread the "kosher lpesach edition" because the label/title on the packaging says one thing - but the inside is nothing like the description?

Offline aygart

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2022, 11:56:38 PM »
I am saying that is what your logic leads to.

We are talking about your vote. You claim it is a waste of time in NY. It is a waste of time (your vote) no matter which state you live in. You might feel better, but that fact is "your" vote will never matter in NY or any state you live in. That is the logic you are using.
Okay, but that is pretty sound logic.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2022, 11:57:42 PM »
Okay, but that is pretty sound logic.
What is sound logic?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2022, 12:00:55 AM »
What is sound logic?
That the vote doesn't count. In which way do you feel it counts?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2022, 12:06:47 AM »
That the vote doesn't count. In which way do you feel it counts?
A vote is making your voice heard. How do we get to "the people have spoken" if you don't vote?

If I accept the "sound logic" that means my vote will never matter unless it is the deciding vote. I don't accept that.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2022, 12:53:40 AM »
Article by Steven Levitt, author of Freakonomics (btw, great book even if you won't like all his conclusions)
WHY VOTE?

There’s no good economic rationale for going to the polls. So what is it that drives the democratic instinct?

November 6, 2005

Within the economics departments at certain universities, there is a famous but probably apocryphal story about two world-class economists who run into each other at the voting booth.

“What are you doing here?” one asks.

“My wife made me come,” the other says.

The first economist gives a confirming nod. “The same.”

After a mutually sheepish moment, one of them hatches a plan: “If you promise never to tell anyone you saw me here, I’ll never tell anyone I saw you.” They shake hands, finish their polling business and scurry off.

Why would an economist be embarrassed to be seen at the voting booth? Because voting exacts a cost—in time, effort, lost productivity—with no discernible payoff except perhaps some vague sense of having done your “civic duty.” As the economist Patricia Funk wrote in a recent paper, “A rational individual should abstain from voting.”

The odds that your vote will actually affect the outcome of a given election are very, very, very slim. This was documented by the economists Casey Mulligan and Charles Hunter, who analyzed more than 56,000 Congressional and state-legislative elections since 1898. For all the attention paid in the media to close elections, it turns out that they are exceedingly rare. The median margin of victory in the Congressional elections was 22 percent; in the state-legislature elections, it was 25 percent. Even in the closest elections, it is almost never the case that a single vote is pivotal. Of the more than 40,000 elections for state legislator that Mulligan and Hunter analyzed, comprising nearly one billion votes, only seven elections were decided by a single vote, with two others tied. Of the more than 16,000 Congressional elections, in which many more people vote, only one election in the past one hundred years—a 1910 race in Buffalo—was decided by a single vote.

But there is a more important point: the closer an election is, the more likely that its outcome will be taken out of the voters’ hands—most vividly exemplified, of course, by the 2000 presidential race. It is true that the outcome of that election came down to a handful of voters; but their names were Kennedy, O’Connor, Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas. And it was only the votes they cast while wearing their robes that mattered, not the ones they may have cast in their home precincts.

Still, people do continue to vote, in the millions. Why? Here are three possibilities:

Perhaps we are just not very bright and therefore wrongly believe that our votes will affect the outcome.
Perhaps we vote in the same spirit in which we buy lottery tickets. After all, your chances of winning a lottery and of affecting an election are pretty similar. From a financial perspective, playing the lottery is a bad investment. But it’s fun and relatively cheap: for the price of a ticket, you buy the right to fantasize how you’d spend the winnings—much as you get to fantasize that your vote will have some impact on policy.
Perhaps we have been socialized into the voting-as-civic-duty idea, believing that it’s a good thing for society if people vote, even if it’s not particularly good for the individual. And thus we feel guilty for not voting.
But wait a minute, you say. If everyone thought about voting the way economists do, we might have no elections at all. No voter goes to the polls actually believing that her single vote will affect the outcome, does she? And isn’t it cruel to even suggest that her vote is not worth casting?

This is indeed a slippery slope—the seemingly meaningless behavior of an individual, which, in aggregate, becomes quite meaningful. Here’s a similar example in reverse. Imagine that you and your eight-year-old daughter are taking a walk through a botanical garden when she suddenly pulls a bright blossom off a tree.

“You shouldn’t do that,” you find yourself saying.

“Why not?” she asks.

“Well,” you reason, “because if everyone picked one, there wouldn’t be any flowers left at all.”

“Yeah, but everybody isn’t picking them,” she says with a look. “Only me.”

In the old days, there were more pragmatic incentives to vote. Political parties regularly paid voters $5 or $10 to cast the proper ballot; sometimes payment came in the form of a keg of whiskey, a barrel of flour or, in the case of an 1890 New Hampshire Congressional race, a live pig.

Now as then, many people worry about low voter turnout—only slightly more than half of eligible voters participated in the last presidential election—but it might be more worthwhile to stand this problem on its head and instead ask a different question: considering that an individual’s vote almost never matters, why do so many people bother to vote at all?

The answer may lie in Switzerland. That’s where Patricia Funk discovered a wonderful natural experiment that allowed her to take an acute measure of voter behavior.

The Swiss love to vote—on parliamentary elections, on plebiscites, on whatever may arise. But voter participation had begun to slip over the years (maybe they stopped handing out live pigs there too), so a new option was introduced: the mail-in ballot. Whereas each voter in the U.S. must register, that isn’t the case in Switzerland. Every eligible Swiss citizen began to automatically receive a ballot in the mail, which could then be completed and returned by mail.

From a social scientist’s perspective, there was beauty in the setup of this postal voting scheme: because it was introduced in different cantons (the twenty-six statelike districts that make up Switzerland) in different years, it allowed for a sophisticated measurement of its effects over time.

Never again would any Swiss voter have to tromp to the polls during a rainstorm; the cost of casting a ballot had been lowered significantly. An economic model would therefore predict voter turnout to increase substantially. Is that what happened?

Not at all. In fact, voter turnout often decreased, especially in smaller cantons and in the smaller communities within cantons. This finding may have serious implications for advocates of Internet voting—which, it has long been argued, would make voting easier and therefore increase turnout. But the Swiss model indicates that the exact opposite might hold true.

Why is this the case? Why on earth would fewer people vote when the cost of doing so is lowered?

It goes back to the incentives behind voting. If a given citizen doesn’t stand a chance of having her vote affect the outcome, why does she bother? In Switzerland, as in the U.S., “there exists a fairly strong social norm that a good citizen should go to the polls,” Funk writes. “As long as poll-voting was the only option, there was an incentive (or pressure) to go to the polls only to be seen handing in the vote. The motivation could be hope for social esteem, benefits from being perceived as a cooperator or just the avoidance of informal sanctions. Since in small communities, people know each other better and gossip about who fulfills civic duties and who doesn’t, the benefits of norm adherence were particularly high in this type of community.”

In other words, we do vote out of self-interest—a conclusion that will satisfy economists—but not necessarily the same self-interest as indicated by our actual ballot choice. For all the talk of how people “vote their pocketbooks,” the Swiss study suggests that we may be driven to vote less by a financial incentive than a social one. It may be that the most valuable payoff of voting is simply being seen at the polling place by your friends or co-workers.

Unless, of course, you happen to be an economist.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 01:04:03 AM by mevinyavin »
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2022, 08:43:07 AM »
A vote is making your voice heard. How do we get to "the people have spoken" if you don't vote?

There are plenty of other races. The US Presidential Election just isn't one where it happens (ever heard of the Electoral College?)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2022, 08:44:21 AM »
A vote is making your voice heard. How do we get to "the people have spoken" if you don't vote?

If I accept the "sound logic" that means my vote will never matter unless it is the deciding vote. I don't accept that.
But is your voice really heard if one side always wins by huge margins?

Maybe we don't really get to the people have spoken there? Acceptance has no bearing on whether or not it is true.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2022, 09:13:40 AM »
There are plenty of other races. The US Presidential Election just isn't one where it happens (ever heard of the Electoral College?)
We now have a new pretzel, Electoral College.  :)
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2022, 09:24:04 AM »
We now have a new pretzel, Electoral College.  :)
I know, those Pennsylvania Dutch founders.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2022, 10:06:42 AM »
Article by Steven Levitt, author of Freakonomics (btw, great book even if you won't like all his conclusions)
WHY VOTE?

There’s no good economic rationale for going to the polls. So what is it that drives the democratic instinct?

November 6, 2005

Within the economics departments at certain universities, there is a famous but probably apocryphal story about two world-class economists who run into each other at the voting booth.

“What are you doing here?” one asks.

“My wife made me come,” the other says.

The first economist gives a confirming nod. “The same.”

After a mutually sheepish moment, one of them hatches a plan: “If you promise never to tell anyone you saw me here, I’ll never tell anyone I saw you.” They shake hands, finish their polling business and scurry off.

Why would an economist be embarrassed to be seen at the voting booth? Because voting exacts a cost—in time, effort, lost productivity—with no discernible payoff except perhaps some vague sense of having done your “civic duty.” As the economist Patricia Funk wrote in a recent paper, “A rational individual should abstain from voting.”

The odds that your vote will actually affect the outcome of a given election are very, very, very slim. This was documented by the economists Casey Mulligan and Charles Hunter, who analyzed more than 56,000 Congressional and state-legislative elections since 1898. For all the attention paid in the media to close elections, it turns out that they are exceedingly rare. The median margin of victory in the Congressional elections was 22 percent; in the state-legislature elections, it was 25 percent. Even in the closest elections, it is almost never the case that a single vote is pivotal. Of the more than 40,000 elections for state legislator that Mulligan and Hunter analyzed, comprising nearly one billion votes, only seven elections were decided by a single vote, with two others tied. Of the more than 16,000 Congressional elections, in which many more people vote, only one election in the past one hundred years—a 1910 race in Buffalo—was decided by a single vote.

But there is a more important point: the closer an election is, the more likely that its outcome will be taken out of the voters’ hands—most vividly exemplified, of course, by the 2000 presidential race. It is true that the outcome of that election came down to a handful of voters; but their names were Kennedy, O’Connor, Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas. And it was only the votes they cast while wearing their robes that mattered, not the ones they may have cast in their home precincts.

Still, people do continue to vote, in the millions. Why? Here are three possibilities:

Perhaps we are just not very bright and therefore wrongly believe that our votes will affect the outcome.
Perhaps we vote in the same spirit in which we buy lottery tickets. After all, your chances of winning a lottery and of affecting an election are pretty similar. From a financial perspective, playing the lottery is a bad investment. But it’s fun and relatively cheap: for the price of a ticket, you buy the right to fantasize how you’d spend the winnings—much as you get to fantasize that your vote will have some impact on policy.
Perhaps we have been socialized into the voting-as-civic-duty idea, believing that it’s a good thing for society if people vote, even if it’s not particularly good for the individual. And thus we feel guilty for not voting.
But wait a minute, you say. If everyone thought about voting the way economists do, we might have no elections at all. No voter goes to the polls actually believing that her single vote will affect the outcome, does she? And isn’t it cruel to even suggest that her vote is not worth casting?

This is indeed a slippery slope—the seemingly meaningless behavior of an individual, which, in aggregate, becomes quite meaningful. Here’s a similar example in reverse. Imagine that you and your eight-year-old daughter are taking a walk through a botanical garden when she suddenly pulls a bright blossom off a tree.

“You shouldn’t do that,” you find yourself saying.

“Why not?” she asks.

“Well,” you reason, “because if everyone picked one, there wouldn’t be any flowers left at all.”

“Yeah, but everybody isn’t picking them,” she says with a look. “Only me.”

In the old days, there were more pragmatic incentives to vote. Political parties regularly paid voters $5 or $10 to cast the proper ballot; sometimes payment came in the form of a keg of whiskey, a barrel of flour or, in the case of an 1890 New Hampshire Congressional race, a live pig.

Now as then, many people worry about low voter turnout—only slightly more than half of eligible voters participated in the last presidential election—but it might be more worthwhile to stand this problem on its head and instead ask a different question: considering that an individual’s vote almost never matters, why do so many people bother to vote at all?

The answer may lie in Switzerland. That’s where Patricia Funk discovered a wonderful natural experiment that allowed her to take an acute measure of voter behavior.

The Swiss love to vote—on parliamentary elections, on plebiscites, on whatever may arise. But voter participation had begun to slip over the years (maybe they stopped handing out live pigs there too), so a new option was introduced: the mail-in ballot. Whereas each voter in the U.S. must register, that isn’t the case in Switzerland. Every eligible Swiss citizen began to automatically receive a ballot in the mail, which could then be completed and returned by mail.

From a social scientist’s perspective, there was beauty in the setup of this postal voting scheme: because it was introduced in different cantons (the twenty-six statelike districts that make up Switzerland) in different years, it allowed for a sophisticated measurement of its effects over time.

Never again would any Swiss voter have to tromp to the polls during a rainstorm; the cost of casting a ballot had been lowered significantly. An economic model would therefore predict voter turnout to increase substantially. Is that what happened?

Not at all. In fact, voter turnout often decreased, especially in smaller cantons and in the smaller communities within cantons. This finding may have serious implications for advocates of Internet voting—which, it has long been argued, would make voting easier and therefore increase turnout. But the Swiss model indicates that the exact opposite might hold true.

Why is this the case? Why on earth would fewer people vote when the cost of doing so is lowered?

It goes back to the incentives behind voting. If a given citizen doesn’t stand a chance of having her vote affect the outcome, why does she bother? In Switzerland, as in the U.S., “there exists a fairly strong social norm that a good citizen should go to the polls,” Funk writes. “As long as poll-voting was the only option, there was an incentive (or pressure) to go to the polls only to be seen handing in the vote. The motivation could be hope for social esteem, benefits from being perceived as a cooperator or just the avoidance of informal sanctions. Since in small communities, people know each other better and gossip about who fulfills civic duties and who doesn’t, the benefits of norm adherence were particularly high in this type of community.”

In other words, we do vote out of self-interest—a conclusion that will satisfy economists—but not necessarily the same self-interest as indicated by our actual ballot choice. For all the talk of how people “vote their pocketbooks,” the Swiss study suggests that we may be driven to vote less by a financial incentive than a social one. It may be that the most valuable payoff of voting is simply being seen at the polling place by your friends or co-workers.

Unless, of course, you happen to be an economist.

To sum this up in a brief sentence: Facts don't care about your feelings, and your feelings don't care about the facts.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2022, 10:10:16 AM »
To sum this up in a brief sentence: Facts don't care about your feelings, and your feelings don't care about the facts.
...and the fact is one individual vote has never made a difference in a presidential election.
So, no individual should ever vote in any presidential election as their vote will never matter.
How do we elect a president without anyone voting?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Do you still support Trump? - The Kosher Le'pesach edition
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2022, 10:19:53 AM »
To sum this up in a brief sentence: Facts don't care about your feelings, and your feelings don't care about the facts.
The yeshivish take: Someone just needs to ask a godol if this is the proper hishtadlus.
Oh, wait...
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!