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I’d be wary though, [Kehos has] been accused of tampering with the text of when it doesn’t fit with their narrative, for example when the צמח צדק spoke with “too much” respect about the גר”א.
Yada yada yada

It’s pretty clear that my op was unnecessarily incendiary and provocative, it also did not account for who was קהת in that timeframe (which I had been unaware).
Because I brought it up I should say this: It’s clear that the allegations about the כתבי יד are unsubstantiated, and are thus conspiratorial.

« Last edited by Dan on January 13, 2023, 10:09:03 AM »

Author Topic: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery  (Read 43987 times)

Offline gozalim

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2022, 09:35:39 PM »
Anything could happen. Question is if the whole source is because it can’t be the צמח צדק referred to the Gaon as holy.
is that what the letter says?

I'm pretty sure that the catalog copy itself substantiates the story.

but I begin to doubt I'm dealing with an impartial reader; to be so well versed in every conspiracy theory, while being so clueless as to the contents of the actual letter...

Offline dm123

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2022, 09:40:13 PM »
So we have no idea who the story originated from. Maybe from someone coming from this perspective?




Speaking of Harav Mondshine, anyone know if he wrote a response to this allegation, or if in general he wrote about this specific line allegedly being changed in the T"T?


Offline gozalim

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2022, 09:44:11 PM »
The defense I’ve seen is that the original manuscript has since supported the change. I’d be very interested to know more about that.
quoted mid page here
https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=30507#p=294&fitMode=fitheight&hlts=&ocr=

Offline dm123

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2022, 09:49:55 PM »
Anything could happen. Question is if the whole source is because it can’t be the צמח צדק referred to the Gaon as holy.

Again, in Yeshurun the claim is that the T"T refers many times to the Gra bderech kavod. It shouldn't be hard to find another place where he says "holy". Is there?

Offline gozalim

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2022, 09:51:39 PM »
Again, in Yeshurun the claim is that the T"T refers many times to the Gra bderech kavod. It shouldn't be hard to find another place where he says "holy". Is there?
and therefore no reason to assume the chassidim had a problem with that nusach. more likely they were correcting a forgery to fix back to the original manuscript

Offline imayid2

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2022, 10:18:36 PM »
is that what the letter says?

I'm pretty sure that the catalog copy itself substantiates the story.

but I begin to doubt I'm dealing with an impartial reader; to be so well versed in every conspiracy theory, while being so clueless as to the contents of the actual letter...
I’m not quite sure what you mean. Please clarify.
It’s not strange to you that these claims don’t seem to be substantiated?
You consider yourself impartial?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2022, 10:20:20 PM »
Again, in Yeshurun the claim is that the T"T refers many times to the Gra bderech kavod. It shouldn't be hard to find another place where he says "holy". Is there?
This makes very little difference to me. It *proves* that he can’t have said this because other places he doesn’t use that specific word?

Offline gozalim

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2022, 10:22:39 PM »
It’s not strange to you that these claims don’t seem to be substantiated?
how would you like them substantiated? a vilna whistleblower?
You consider yourself impartial?
A גדול בתורה tells a story. one of us takes it at face value. one of us is assuming falsehood using every imaginable conspiracy. which view would an 'impartial' person (occam?) take?
This makes very little difference to me. It *proves* that he can’t have said this because other places he doesn’t use that specific word?
again the language is secondary

Offline dm123

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2022, 10:23:41 PM »
This makes very little difference to me. It *proves* that he can’t have said this because other places he doesn’t use that specific word?

It brings us closer to understanding what his style was. And that (his style) can give us a larger insight into what the T"T actually wrote.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2022, 10:24:05 PM »
in any case, equating the 5760 editors to the 5709 editors is the height of ignorance

Offline imayid2

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2022, 10:25:37 PM »
in any case, equating the 5760 editors to the 5709 editors is the height of ignorance
Have they fixed it?

Offline gozalim

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2022, 10:26:03 PM »

Offline imayid2

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2022, 10:27:06 PM »

Offline gozalim

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2022, 10:27:44 PM »

I answered that.
in this discussion I henceforth consider you a troll

and to answer it again:
absolutely not! nor do I believe that what you allege is up for discussion on this platform

Offline dm123

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2022, 10:33:43 PM »
This makes very little difference to me. It *proves* that he can’t have said this because other places he doesn’t use that specific word?

You do realize that what it says in Yeshurun seems to be largely based on conjecture, right? Doesn't necessarily make it wrong, just to point out what large swaths of his argument seem to be based on.

He’s basically saying that they are unaware of the respect according numerous times, and absurdly tampered with this one because they couldn’t stomach it.

The chassidim are unaware of the respect granted numerous times in the sefer, and "absurdly" couldn't stomach this one instance? Perhaps what's absurd here is the claim he's making...

Offline dm123

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2022, 10:40:41 PM »
I’d be wary though, they’ve been accused of tampering with the text of when it doesn’t fit with their narrative, for example when the צמח צדק spoke with “too much” respect about the גר”א.

Back to the OP, do you have any other exhibits? If this is what you come after Chabad publishing for, I'd be interested to see when someone mentions Oz Vehadar or Artscroll around you...

Offline imayid2

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2022, 10:44:00 PM »
In היכל הבעש״ט there was a very comprehensive response to this article (I’ve quoted parts upthread). In all I found the response most convincing for the main contention of the article (I’d say he wiped the floor with him). He addresses this part of the article in the last footnote
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=65721&st=&pgnum=212
I’d love to know more about that, the other explanations don’t really do it for me. I have no skin in this, others apparently do.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2022, 10:45:37 PM »
Back to the OP, do you have any other exhibits? If this is what you come after Chabad publishing for, I'd be interested to see when someone mentions Oz Vehadar or Artscroll around you...
Artscroll famously excised some Rashbams they didn’t like. I’d definitely double check into something they’re publishing too.
They were excoriated by Rabbi Mondshine for this.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 10:49:05 PM by imayid2 »

Offline gozalim

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2022, 10:46:33 PM »
I have no skin in this, others apparently do.

think about why that might be
Think about who you're calling a liar

Offline imayid2

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2022, 10:47:42 PM »
Think about who you're calling a liar
This is your projection.