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I’d be wary though, [Kehos has] been accused of tampering with the text of when it doesn’t fit with their narrative, for example when the צמח צדק spoke with “too much” respect about the גר”א.
Yada yada yada

It’s pretty clear that my op was unnecessarily incendiary and provocative, it also did not account for who was קהת in that timeframe (which I had been unaware).
Because I brought it up I should say this: It’s clear that the allegations about the כתבי יד are unsubstantiated, and are thus conspiratorial.

« Last edited by Dan on January 13, 2023, 10:09:03 AM »

Author Topic: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery  (Read 51876 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #740 on: January 19, 2023, 12:27:10 AM »
I think it's time to again extend a hearty Mazel Tov to our friend @imayid2 on the birth of his son. May he bring him בבריתו של אאע"ה and be זוכה to lots of Yiddish (and Chassidishe 😉) nachas from him and all others.
Thank you! Amen!
Hoping to get together in person some day for a good farbrengen and learning.
Same!

Offline liosac

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #741 on: January 19, 2023, 05:00:14 AM »
Fwiw, I feel like I barely hear snag anymore. I think I hear it from Litvish folk referring to themselves. Either it's dying, or it's popular as ever, just its a kids word.
Probability used more to be cute nowadays than in the course of serious conversation like
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=99236.msg2168488#msg2168488

Offline gozalim

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #742 on: January 19, 2023, 02:40:30 PM »
Mazal Tov @imayid2
wishing you lots of Nachas, raise him לתורה לחופה ולמעשים טובים.
(I'd cautiously wish you to see him grow to be a חסיד, ירא שמים ולמדן, but don't wanna flare that up again...  :P )

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #743 on: January 19, 2023, 03:08:31 PM »
Mazal Tov @imayid2
wishing you lots of Nachas, raise him לתורה לחופה ולמעשים טובים.
(I'd cautiously wish you to see him grow to be a חסיד, ירא שמים ולמדן, but don't wanna flare that up again...  :P )



Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #744 on: January 20, 2023, 12:41:29 AM »
The holy חפץ חיים


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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #745 on: January 20, 2023, 12:01:28 PM »
The holy חפץ חיים

I heard from my grandfather (I am not sure who he heard this from) that the Chofetz Chaim stated that he would become Chassidish and take on Nusach Sfard etc., if not for Derech Eretz for his parents.

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #746 on: January 20, 2023, 12:06:45 PM »
I heard from my grandfather (I am not sure who he heard this from) that the Chofetz Chaim stated that he would become Chassidish and take on Nusach Sfard etc., if not for Derech Eretz for his parents.
No chance.



Offline gozalim

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #747 on: January 20, 2023, 12:10:03 PM »
If he mentioned that he would change nusach, the more likely reason would be for the halachic benefit of the nusach

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #748 on: January 20, 2023, 12:22:11 PM »
If he mentioned that he would change nusach,
No chance.

the more likely reason would be for the halachic benefit of the nusach
Highly unlikely that he would feel that way. FWIU it’s promoted על פי קבלה, not על פי הלכה. And since it was a strong point of contention pretty much universally shared by litvisha Gedolim that its wrong to change to it, there would need to be a very reliable source to assert that the חפץ חיים felt otherwise.

In general this is what his viewpoint was:


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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #749 on: January 20, 2023, 12:27:31 PM »
Highly unlikely that he would feel that way. FWIU it’s promoted על פי קבלה, not על פי הלכה. And since it was a strong point of contention pretty much universally shared by litvisha Gedolim that its wrong to change to it, there would need to be a very reliable source to assert that the חפץ חיים felt otherwise.

+1 especially as a halachic benefit even if we accept that it can be done al pi kabbala as discussed by many poskim.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #750 on: January 20, 2023, 12:38:28 PM »
+1 especially as a halachic benefit even if we accept that it can be done al pi kabbala as discussed by many poskim.
Reminds me of the time when I was by the Shabbos seuda of הג״ר חיים קנייבסקי זצ״ל and someone asked about a bachur who’s father davened sfard but was in a litvisha yeshiva and had been davening ashkenaz. He felt uncomfortable about switching his fathers nusach and asked Rav Chaim about it.

He looked up smiled and said “Ah vort fun der chazon ish. Far zei haben gedavent sfard zei haben gedevenet ashkinaz. Un zei haben mishana givven שלא כדין!”

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #751 on: January 20, 2023, 12:46:07 PM »
Reminds me of the time when I was by the Shabbos seuda of הג״ר חיים קנייבסקי זצ״ל and someone asked about a bachur who’s father davened sfard but was in a litvisha yeshiva and had been davening ashkenaz. He felt uncomfortable about switching his fathers nusach and asked Rav Chaim about it.

He looked up smiled and said “Ah vort fun der chazon ish. Far zei haben gedavent sfard zei haben gedevenet ashkinaz. Un zei haben mishana givven שלא כדין!”
Of course, Chassidim always make sure to avoid Dinim.

Offline dm123

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #752 on: January 20, 2023, 12:48:40 PM »
He looked up smiled and said “Ah vort fun der chazon ish. Far zei haben gedavent sfard zei haben gedevenet ashkinaz. Un zei haben mishana givven שלא כדין!”

Bringing up a pet peeve of mine (so this may be a more irrational post)... So the Chazon Ish said yotzros and the right tunes etc, as if you look in minhagei ashkenaz they seemed to be pretty obsessive about that... Or HE could change it "kdin" (cough cough hoiche shmona esreh lechatchila cough cough)... but others aren't given that right...

Litvishe weren't iconoclasts when it came to tfilla? Just they changed the mesora of nusach based on how they understood the gemara, which the AR seems to have been busy with as well (nothing from after a certain period etc)...

As usual I don't know the sugya well (at all?)

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #753 on: January 20, 2023, 12:49:11 PM »
Of course, Chassidim always make sure to avoid Dinim.
Liked your post because I think you’re making a joke about המתקת דינים

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #754 on: January 20, 2023, 12:52:08 PM »
Of course, Chassidim always make sure to avoid Dinim.

Huh? The shitos stating this opinion of the Chazon Ish go all the way back to the GRA and Noda Biyehuda. I understand that the chassidim of the time obviously had a different understanding of the halacha.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline dm123

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #755 on: January 20, 2023, 12:56:24 PM »
FWIU it’s promoted על פי קבלה, not על פי הלכה.

FWIU the AR's changes were made in large part due to halacha/original nusach based on gemara/geonim etc.

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #756 on: January 20, 2023, 12:56:56 PM »
Liked your post because I think you’re making a joke about המתקת דינים
Exactly.
Huh? The shitos stating this opinion of the Chazon Ish go all the way back to the GRA and Noda Biyehuda. I understand that the chassidim of the time obviously had a different understanding of the halacha.
This is an old machlokes. There are a number of teshuvas between the Chasam Sofer and the Divrei Chaim on this topic.

As an aside, I don't see what anyone 200 years later would still be chewing over the old arguments when everything was already clarified 200 years ago.

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #757 on: January 20, 2023, 12:57:03 PM »
FWIU the AR's changes were made in large part due to halacha/original nusach based on gemara/geonim etc.
Source?

Offline dm123

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #758 on: January 20, 2023, 12:58:57 PM »
Source?

Don't have offhand, will try and get, but where's your source that he changed based on kabala not halacha?  ;)

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #759 on: January 20, 2023, 01:00:14 PM »
Exactly.
That one went over my head.
This is an old machlokes. There are a number of teshuvas between the Chasam Sofer and the Divrei Chaim on this topic.

As an aside, I don't see what anyone 200 years later would still be chewing over the old arguments when everything was already clarified 200 years ago.

Exactly my point. It is not quite shocking that a litveshe posek would take that position and say that when asked halacha limaase

Feelings don't care about your facts