(False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery

[gozalim]

Doesn’t sound like it from the tshuva

another anonymous quote, though from context I'd assume this is a sefer of the C"C?

at what point in time?

[imayid2]

another anonymous quote, though from context I'd assume this is a sefer of the C"C?

at what point in time?

That one is (שו״ת אורח חיים סימן טו(ב. It is undated.

This one in סימן קצ״ז is dated תקע״ח

[gozalim]

Thanks.
And this rumor that he allegedly did feel he had reached that knowledge is from what time period?

in any case, these quotes are much more relevant to that story than any random quotes about chassidim in general...

[imayid2]

Thanks.
And this rumor that he allegedly did feel he had reached that knowledge is from what time period?

I don’t know what you refer to. I’m not aware of such a rumor.

[gozalim]

I don’t know what you refer to. I’m not aware of such a rumor.

I heard from my grandfather (I am not sure who he heard this from) that the Chofetz Chaim stated that he would become Chassidish and take on Nusach Sfard etc., if not for Derech Eretz for his parents.

this comment from @yelped

[yelped]

That one is (שו״ת אורח חיים סימן טו(ב. It is undated.

This one in סימן קצ״ז is dated תקע״ח

R'Hershele Liska (for you misnagdim, should be known as the Chavrusa and close friend of the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch and the Maraham Ash ) writes that הא גופא is a ראיה that Nusach Sfard is correct, being that Hashem only sent the Ari and not anyone else for Nusach Ashkenaz.

In any case, everyone agrees that the only changes that should be done are ones that the Ari was megale to us and no other deviations from Ashkenaz minhag should be done.

[imayid2]

this comment from @yelped

Sorry bit of a miscommunication here. The above quotes are from the חתם סופר. Missed your “c”c”.

As for the chofetz chaim, I do not think there is any validity to the claim. It was part of a story where he wanted to become chassidesh, which is too unbelievable to be true based on what his son says about his general views on the subject.

[ExGingi]

AR niggun in shul of תלמידי הגר"א

https://twitter.com/mkystatus/status/1617539376145203206

[Unusual]

There seems to be an attitude here that it is impossible that the hisnagdus contributed anything to the Chassidim.
I just wish to post this story from the Sefer Doleh Umashkeh - stories that were told by Reb Mordechai Dovid Cohen, close Talmid of the Satmar Rav.

[imayid2]

There seems to be an attitude here that it is impossible that the hisnagdus contributed anything to the Chassidim.
I just wish to post this story from the Sefer Doleh Umashkeh - stories that were told by Reb Mordechai Dovid Cohen, close Talmid of the Satmar Rav.

Welcome to the forums. No better thread to debut

I don’t see how it shows hisnagdus “contributing” anything, just that it was מן השמים. It’s designed to feed the narrative that there was nothing legitimate about the hisnagdus and orchestrated by heaven for whatever reason.

[Dan]

There seems to be an attitude here that it is impossible that the hisnagdus contributed anything to the Chassidim.
I just wish to post this story from the Sefer Doleh Umashkeh - stories that were told by Reb Mordechai Dovid Cohen, close Talmid of the Satmar Rav.

How does this show any contribution any more than any other eis tzorah that is min hashamiyim?

[EliJelly]

How does this show any contribution any more than any other eis tzorah that is min hashamiyim?

You missed the last line. It was the malach M"TT, not the S"M. This concept was very standard in circles other than Lubavitch that some were designed to contribute to yiddishkeit outside the realm of chassidus. There are other anecdotes to that effect, including from the Magid and the Yesod V'shoresh H'avodah.

Btw, Shinover Rov's yahrtzeit today. 

[Dan]

You missed the last line. It was the malach M"TT, not the S"M. This concept was very standard in circles other than Lubavitch that some were designed to contribute to yiddishkeit outside the realm of chassidus.

I can't imagine why in Chabad, where mesira from misnagdim led to prison and death sentences starting from the Alter Rebbe on down, wouldn't see the hisnagdus as something that contributed positively to chassidus.

[EliJelly]

I can't imagine why in Chabad, where mesira from misnagdim led to prison and death sentences starting from the Alter Rebbe on down, wouldn't see the hisnagdus as something that contributed positively to chassidus.

No question about that.

I don’t see how it shows hisnagdus “contributing” anything, just that it was מן השמים.

True, that piece doesn't show hisnagdus contributing, but it shows how the Boruch Taam's hisnagdus was perceived by the Apter Rov, not that it was unfortunate that he remained a misnaged, but that's how it was intended to be.

It’s designed to feed the narrative that there was nothing legitimate about the hisnagdus and orchestrated by heaven for whatever reason.

Yup, the Shinover Rov and the Satmar Rov were both notoriously famous for their fabricating stories in order to push the chassidus agenda. 

[Unusual]

I can't imagine why in Chabad, where mesira from misnagdim led to prison and death sentences starting from the Alter Rebbe on down, wouldn't see the hisnagdus as something that contributed positively to chassidus.

I guess it will have to stay a Machlokes between Dan and the Apter Rav.

On a more serious note, you are right that the hisnagdus was more painful to Chabad than to other places, but pain does not mean non-beneficial. The Apter Rav, and perhaps the Tzemach Tzedek, believed that there was something positive to it, Chassidus benefited from it.

Personally, I feel that the interconnectedness of Klal Yisroel means that all gain from each other, and that is something to be proud of. I cannot imagine a world of Galicaner Poskim without a Sefardishe Maharit, or Litvishe Gedolim without a Shulchan Aruch Harav, or anyone without an Italian Mesilas Yesharim. We all need each other.

[Dan]

I guess it will have to stay a Machlokes between Dan and the Apter Rav.

perhaps the Tzemach Tzedek

Prove it from Chabad sources please.

Personally, I feel that the interconnectedness of Klal Yisroel means that all gain from each other, and that is something to be proud of. I cannot imagine a world of Galicaner Poskim without a Sefardishe Maharit, or Litvishe Gedolim without a Shulchan Aruch Harav, or anyone without an Italian Mesilas Yesharim. We all need each other.

100%!
But please don't preach to Chabad about how great it was to go through the trauma of having the majority of our leaders sentenced to prison and death. We can still call a spade a spade and not justify mesira and baseless hatred.

[gozalim]

I guess it will have to stay a Machlokes between Dan and the Apter Rav.

On a more serious note, you are right that the hisnagdus was more painful to Chabad than to other places, but pain does not mean non-beneficial. The Apter Rav, and perhaps the Tzemach Tzedek, believed that there was something positive to it, Chassidus benefited from it.

Personally, I feel that the interconnectedness of Klal Yisroel means that all gain from each other, and that is something to be proud of. I cannot imagine a world of Galicaner Poskim without a Sefardishe Maharit, or Litvishe Gedolim without a Shulchan Aruch Harav, or anyone without an Italian Mesilas Yesharim. We all need each other.

In the name of Unity.
The Tzemach Tzedek's grandchildren and ממלאי מקום denied the quote. and the premise.

of course there is much for us all to learn from each other. there are valuable insights from ספרי הגר"א on all parts of torah. and Chabad is the first to argue that the existence of a hisnagdus paralleled a מניעה מלמעלה to the התפשטות החסידות (which יט כסלו resolved)
But the חסידים הראשונים needed no saving, and were not short on lomdus in any way, least of all that which the מוסרים claimed.

[imayid2]

Yup, the Shinover Rov and the Satmar Rov were both notoriously famous for their fabricating stories in order to push the chassidus agenda.

Stories aren’t maliciously fabricated, they evolve and are adopted in forms that portray a certain narrative.

[aygart]

Prove it from Chabad sources please.
100%!
But please don't preach to Chabad about how great it was to go through the trauma of having the majority of our leaders sentenced to prison and death. We can still call a spade a spade and not justify mesira and baseless hatred.

There is a long distance between saying that there was a benefit from the misnagdim to saying that it was great for them to have been sentenced to prison or death.

[imayid2]

But the חסידים הראשונים needed no saving, and were not short on lomdus in any way, least of all that which the מוסרים claimed.

The accusations (in this area) weren’t about “being short on lomdus” as in not learning enough עיון and focusing on bekious. The problem were much more serious, as in minimizing the importance of לימוד התורה בכלל. This has been demonstrated to have been true, in their own words, up thread.

Here is another one not yet mentioned which no doubt contributed to the sefer being allegedly burned in Vilna