(False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery

[dm123]

Gell mann amnesia effect?

Not exactly. There is a huge spectrum among the authors from knows how to get facts and present accurately with very reasonable theories to absolute Bungler of facts, forget about the cockamamie theories they spout

[gozalim]

with secular academics and haredi history there isn't even that benefit. they're just plain ignorant

correction. this is the better case.
some of the ones mentioned here could know better and intentionally warp

[gozalim]

Not exactly. There is a huge spectrum among the authors from knows how to get facts and present accurately with very reasonable theories to absolute Bungler of facts, forget about the cockamamie theories they spout

have you met any of these?
and if yes, any in this book?

IME those are by far the exception

[yelped]

Just skimmed through this discussion and I don't understand why we're rehashing all the hate the misnagdim had towards the Chassidim for offenses that were proven to be benign, as Rabbi Akiva Eiger writes to his son.

In any case, just reminded myself about this piece here:

[imayid2]

Just skimmed through this discussion and I don't understand why we're rehashing all the hate the misnagdim had towards the Chassidim for offenses that were proven to be benign, as Rabbi Akiva Eiger writes to his son.

It’s because of revisionism. Which irks people to varying levels.

[yelped]

It’s because of revisionism. Which irks people to varying levels.

Historical revisionism of people who were practicing revisionism with current events?

[imayid2]

We’ve been focused on historical facts, not sure why you’d want to focus on the unpleasant rhetoric. There is enough to go the other way, I assure you. I will not be posting.

[yelped]

We’ve been focused on historical facts, not sure why you’d want to focus on the unpleasant rhetoric. There is enough to go the other way, I assure you. I will not be posting.

Um, this is the fact. The misnagdim's complaints against the Chassidim was unpleasant rhetoric (which lead to many worse things).

[imayid2]

These would be the guys who did the particular part of the book relevant to our discussion. I don’t know anything about them, and frankly I’m not sure what it has to do with anything we’ve been discussing, which is examining facts.

[Pony]

Biggest proof in my mind that this conversation is not nogaya today is that you don't see gedolie yisroel from either side busy with this these days. In general, there has been so much more contact between different frum communities these days that we've learned to incorporate the mailos of each other. This whole conversation was for a different time and a different place.

[EliJelly]

It’s because of revisionism. Which irks people to varying levels.

[imayid2]

Biggest proof in my mind that this conversation is not nogaya today is that you don't see gedolie yisroel from either side busy with this these days. In general, there has been so much more contact between different frum communities these days that we've learned to incorporate the mailos of each other. This whole conversation was for a different time and a different place.

Personally I like to know and understand the ideology behind why I’m not chassidesh. Also this conversation is about revisionism which was happening now. And  many people enjoy examining controversies of history especially ones that shaped their religion the way this did.

[imayid2]

Oh vey here we go again. I was not aware of this disputation of his view on this. Gotta look into it, thanks for posting.

Do you know what year it’s from?

[EliJelly]

Do you know what year it’s from?

Dates are from summer of 2007

[gozalim]

I have no interest in rehashing, nor am I particularly troubled with revisionism on its own.
Today
Limud Hatorah in all it's sections is נחלת הכלל
shmiras halashon is נחלת הכלל
Limud Hagemara is נחלת הכלל
Limud Chassidus is נחלת הכלל
being makpid על קלה כחמורה is נחלת הכלל
Ahavas Yisroel is נחלת הכלל
Caring for our brothers who were not afforded the blessing of a Yiddishe Chinuch is נחלת הכלל

that's great.
(how you sleep at night with history doesn't bother me)

here's the revision I have a problem with (bolded):
Chassidim then were עמי הארץ, קלים בהלכה, קרובים לאפקירסות > hounding them was doing them a favor >
> they're still problematic > (unfortunately hounding isn't acceptable today) > I am justified to avoid learning the chassidus [my grandparents learnt and taught] [which I'm afraid will make my נה"ב uncomfortable] > we better warn others to beware of these sneaky chassidim and their forgeries

[Pony]

Limud Chassidus is נחלת הכלל

Personally, I have never opened a chasideshe sefer in my life that I can recall. And I don't feel a need to. But I'm very friendly with some who consider that an ikur in their life and I don't think my experience is unique. Point is, as a nation we've moved on from the discussion that has animated this thread (though I did find bits and pieces of it interesting and revealing).

[gozalim]

Personally, I have never opened a chasideshe sefer in my life that I can recall. And I don't feel a need to. But I'm very friendly with some who consider that an ikur in their life and I don't think my experience is unique. Point is, as a nation we've moved on from the discussion that has animated this thread (though I did find bits and pieces of it interesting and revealing).

try it, it won't kill you

[imayid2]

here's the revision I have a problem with (bolded):
Chassidim then were עמי הארץ, קלים בהלכה, קרובים לאפקירסות > hounding them was doing them a favor >

No one said that here

> they're still problematic > (unfortunately hounding isn't acceptable today) > I am justified to avoid learning the chassidus [my grandparents learnt and taught]

Once it became apparent that Chassidim were very much not a frankist type cult, the vengeance greatly abated.
It isn’t “revisionism” to still have ideological differences. I’m not quite sure what this has to do with learning chassidus in general. I have nothing against it. Probably will learn tanya one day, although I feel that some basic Kabbalah introductions are necessarily before that.

> we better warn others to beware of these sneaky chassidim and their forgeries

@CountValentine is Chaim available?

[jye]

Personally, I have never opened a chasideshe sefer in my life that I can recall. And I don't feel a need to. But I'm very friendly with some who consider that an ikur in their life and I don't think my experience is unique. Point is, as a nation we've moved on from the discussion that has animated this thread (though I did find bits and pieces of it interesting and revealing).

Whether you’ve opened one or not, your mashpi’im, and many of the seforim you learn from were heavily influenced by chassidus. Rav Hunter euphemistically said that there were three sedition he knew “Baal peh” and one of them was תניא. The אור גדליהו and numerous other seforim are influenced by chassidus. And which maggid shiur hasn’t said over a sfas emes? You might as well learn a bit from the actual sources.

[gozalim]

No one said that hereOnce it became apparent that Chassidim were very much not a frankist type cult, the vengeance greatly abated.
It isn’t “revisionism” to still have ideological differences. I’m not quite sure what this has to do with learning chassidus in general. I have nothing against it. Probably will learn tanya one day, although I feel that some basic Kabbalah introductions are necessarily before that.
@CountValentine is Chaim available?

once the last bold was dropped, it seemed a very quick turn to jump back on the first bold.
this is the first I'm hearing of that the only suspicion we have on today's chassidim is ideological differences. glad to hear it (though forgive me that I won't be benching gomel)