Author Topic: “Torah true schools”?  (Read 14404 times)

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #100 on: January 25, 2023, 09:51:04 AM »
Ummm.... how about, no
ok. I'll bite.
Lets set the definitions:
How would you define Modern Orthodoxy and would you say that the average Modern Orthodox organization was created and is run Al Pi Daas Torah?
That's really the question here.
And once we are at it, lets also define "Al Pi Daas Torah" [APDT]. Are Christians running their organizations APDT because they also "believe" in the "old" Testimate? What about Reform Jews? Can we settle on a definition?

Here's what i have from my Rebbeim.
Modern Orthodoxy tries to combine the Holy and Secular world. They believe in keeping Halacha but also believe strongly in a secular education and/or values. This is opposed to the mainstream Chareidi world (Litvish, Chassidish, and Sefardi) which hold that there is no value unto itself in a Secular Education but only as a means to serving Hashem better. Because of this, many or most Modern Orthodox organizations will have trouble with running them APDT, which means running the organization solely according to Torah Values because they have to accommodate secular values as well.

Offline JMHO

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #101 on: January 25, 2023, 09:52:22 AM »

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #102 on: January 25, 2023, 06:55:20 PM »
I usually stick to the "business" and transactional side of DDF, and stay out of the JS and politics boards, but some recent threads (this one, the Kehot forgery thread, the threads about the recent tragic plane crash, and others) pushed me to add my two cents.

Sorry for letting all those innocent Jews out there who love everyone and everything know the facts.

Re: this (very) narrow point: Innocence, ignorance of the facts, or naiveté are not the only causes for loving everyone. I recently heard someone tell a Chabad rabbi how much they love Chabad because "you guys are so tolerant." The rabbi was actually a little triggered and sharply responded that tolerance implies rising above a dislike or discomfort with someone or something, so calling Chabad tolerant misses the point. "We genuinely love every Jew, and really want to help them do another mitzvah, or help them with their human needs." Obviously there are those who stress only peace and love and use that as a way downplay issues, but as a klal, most of us have more work to do in our ahavas yisroel than in fighting hashem's battles.

but generally speaking, and not directed at any specific poster, it's scary how fast some threads with discussions on Hashkafa, Jews, Judaism, and similar subjects devolve into judgmental statements, antagonistic locked ideological positions, and even mudslinging against entire groups. When discussing US politics it's one thing, I hope most people here don't take it as seriously as they sound like they do. But when the discussion is about ideas and inyonim which people care about on a deeper level, and also may actually have more of a practical impact, it's important to try to keep it mature, respectful, and with the intent to help, not harm.

A slightly more respectful phrasing of questions and a little more willingness to learn something new go a long way.

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #103 on: January 25, 2023, 07:02:21 PM »


Or alternatively, you read things into what I wrote based on pre conceived notions, when in reality it was laser focused on...

(I'm not commenting on the content of your posts,) I'd suggest you try to be more clear about what you are trying to say or imply when you link to or quote something, as a post consisting entirely of two links and a quoted paragraph is just begging to be understood through the lens of "pre-conceived notions." A simple line like "this seems to suggest that...." or "I'd argue that 'this' is a more accurate definition" helps everyone avoid misunderstandings, and stay "laser focused" on the relevant details.

Offline Pony

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #104 on: January 25, 2023, 11:37:28 PM »
it's scary how fast some threads with discussions on Hashkafa, Jews, Judaism, and similar subjects devolve into judgmental statements, antagonistic locked ideological positions, and even mudslinging against entire groups. When discussing US politics it's one thing, I hope most people here don't take it as seriously as they sound like they do. But when the discussion is about ideas and inyonim which people care about on a deeper level, and also may actually have more of a practical impact, it's important to try to keep it mature, respectful, and with the intent to help, not harm.

A slightly more respectful phrasing of questions and a little more willingness to learn something new go a long way.

A quote from the great Reb Avigdor Miller zt”l which I think is appropriate in this topic.

I’m frequently asked: What’s the benefit of different types of servants of Hashem? Who needs chassidim and misnagdim and sefardim? Wouldn’t it have been better if we all walked together on one path towards Hakodosh Boruch Hu?

So I always say: Why is it that you’ll find in the supermarket clover honey and orange blossom honey and buckwheat honey? There are at least ten varieties of honey! Who needs it?! And the answer is that it makes life more delectable! Variety is a pleasure! After all, Hakodosh Boruch Hu could have given us nothing but red delicious apples. Let’s say you’d pass a fruit stand and all you would see is bins and bins of red delicious apples. Now, red delicious apples are a treat; we can’t complain about them, but how much more fun it is when we have ten different kinds of apples! And even better, to have tens and tens of varieties of fruit. It’s much more fun when you can choose from a wide variety of good things.
And therefore, there are all kinds of methods of serving Hashem, each one that has been cultivated by Hashem Himself, by the separation of kehillos. Sometimes a person can choose one method and stick to it always. Or sometimes you can choose from the fruit store of the different shevatim. Sometimes you’ll choose something from the Gerrer, another thing you’ll take from Lakewood, something you’ll pick from Lubavitch, something you’ll take from Belz, and something else you’ll nosh from Satmer. And so on. Every shevet had something to contribute. You can be sure that there are a lot of delightful fruit in all of these various places that help the Am Yisroel in its avodas Hashem.

Everybody is helping out! Some kehillos brought to the Am Yisroel the great benefits of mussar to the Am Yisroel, while other kehillos brought chassidus. From some communities we learn to be kanaaim for the truth and others impress us with their hasmadah in limud hatorah or gemillas chasodim. I myself have learned from one group of Jews in Flatbush what it means to be michabeid talmidei chachomim. Because there’s no end to the variety of paths that the Am Yisroel walk toward the One Hashem and there’s what to learn from everyone.

Now I’m not going to tell you what’s best. Someone asked me, what does Hakodosh Boruch Hu want from me? Am I supposed to be chassidish, or litvish or what? Now that’s some big order. He wants me to make enemies, the one who asked me that question.

Hashem wants you to be the best that you can be. Some people can be their best if they’re chassidish. Some people can be their best if they’re litvish. Other people can be their best if they’re sefardi. It’s like asking – “What is the best diet for all of mankind?” The best type of diet depends on each individual person. People are different. Some people are so different that their diets are radically different. So whatever it is that you choose, you should make it a principle in your life to always choose whatever it is that will give you the most success in life – and success in this world means preparing for the Next World.

Everyone is right. And everyone is wrong. Nobody is perfect in this world. And most important is to live with the principle of knowing that we ourselves are not altogether right.  And we have to do our best to improve. Although we don’t have to adopt what everybody else does, and everyone should follow the customs and manners of his kehilla in the very best manner, nevertheless, he should know that there are things to be learned everywhere.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #105 on: January 26, 2023, 12:07:38 AM »


Reminds me of a famous similar story. A conservative Rabbi in LA once asked Reb Simcha Wasserman how come he as a Litvak keeps such a close relationship with Chabad, something that isn't really the ordinary for a staunch Litvish RY. (CMIIW, I believe he handed over his Yeshiva building to Chabad, what is now YOEC). So Reb Simcha explained to him that Klal Yisrael is referred to in the Psukim as צבאות ה׳, the army of Hashem. Like in the military there are multiple branches, army, navy, air force etc. but all serving the same purpose and the same nation, the same with Klal Yisrael, we have different branches with different dress codes and lifestyles, but ultimately it's all with same purpose in mind - To serve Hashem. When you have that in mind there is no place for aversion towards other groups in Klal Yisroel.


The next part of their conversation is too good to be missed.

So the Conservative Rabbi asked Reb Simcha, "What role in the army do we the conservatives play?"

To which Reb Simcha replied without a blink;

"Deserters".

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #106 on: January 26, 2023, 03:59:12 AM »
I usually stick to the "business" and transactional side of DDF, and stay out of the JS and politics boards, but some recent threads (this one, the Kehot forgery thread, the threads about the recent tragic plane crash, and others) pushed me to add my two cents.

Re: this (very) narrow point: Innocence, ignorance of the facts, or naiveté are not the only causes for loving everyone. I recently heard someone tell a Chabad rabbi how much they love Chabad because "you guys are so tolerant." The rabbi was actually a little triggered and sharply responded that tolerance implies rising above a dislike or discomfort with someone or something, so calling Chabad tolerant misses the point. "We genuinely love every Jew, and really want to help them do another mitzvah, or help them with their human needs." Obviously there are those who stress only peace and love and use that as a way downplay issues, but as a klal, most of us have more work to do in our ahavas yisroel than in fighting hashem's battles.

but generally speaking, and not directed at any specific poster, it's scary how fast some threads with discussions on Hashkafa, Jews, Judaism, and similar subjects devolve into judgmental statements, antagonistic locked ideological positions, and even mudslinging against entire groups. When discussing US politics it's one thing, I hope most people here don't take it as seriously as they sound like they do. But when the discussion is about ideas and inyonim which people care about on a deeper level, and also may actually have more of a practical impact, it's important to try to keep it mature, respectful, and with the intent to help, not harm.

A slightly more respectful phrasing of questions and a little more willingness to learn something new go a long way.
Its nice to hear some constructive criticism. As i wrote earlier, i have lived in Israel most of my life and the way one talks and discusses any issue is way different than the western way. It could be that a statement that in Israel that is normal and even friendly could be taken as offensive and insulting in the US or Europe. It may very well be that if we all understand that deep down everyone really wants the best for himself, all of Klal Yisroel, and really the whole world, the level of hateful comments and awful assumptions of others would shrink immensely.

Offline JMHO

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #107 on: January 26, 2023, 08:15:00 AM »

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #108 on: January 26, 2023, 10:35:05 AM »
This thread, aside for it’s  ill timed introduction and application, makes no sense. You cannot have any discussion about Modern Orthodoxy without defining it first. Presumably those giving their full throated defense are referring to what the Wikipedia link describes “the ideological right”
Quote
the line between Haredi and Modern Orthodox has blurred in recent years; some have referred to this trend as "haredization".[8] In addition to increasing stringency in adherence to Halakha, many Modern Orthodox Jews express a growing sense of alienation from the larger, secular culture.[8][9] ("Western civilisation has moved from what was once called the Judeo-Christian ethic to a consumer-driven, choice-fixated culture.... Such a world is not chol, but chiloni, not secular, but secularist. It is impermeable to the values of kedushah."[10] ) Here, "the balance has tipped heavily in favor of Torah over madda (secular studies) ... [and many] have redefined 'madda' as support for making one's livelihood in the secular world, not culturally or intellectually engaging with it."[8]

and are ignoring the real issues facing a large swath of those identifying as Modern Orthodox as described recently in a set of articles here:
https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/the-modern-orthodox-conundrum/2022/11/16/
https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/the-modern-orthodox-conundrum-part-two-why-is-this-happening/2022/11/23/
https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/the-modern-orthodox-conundrum-part-three-the-solution/2022/12/01/

though this too failed to adequately define the term as pointed out in a rejoinder here:
http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2022/08/modern-orthodoxy-defined.html

Some of these issues aren’t really an exclusively MO problem.

Particularly interesting is that people fail to understand that much of the centrist/left leaning swaths of MO embodies the ideology of Moses Mendelssohn and the original very conservative haskala movement (he is erroneously described in the above articles as reformer). It’s beyond ironic to see Rav Avigdor Miller being invoked as a defense of the legitimacy of Modern Orthodoxy as a whole.

Beautiful letter from the Rebbe about the term MO over here:
https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/1843862/jewish/Can-There-Be-Modern-Orthodoxy.htm

Offline Pony

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #109 on: January 26, 2023, 11:48:04 AM »


It’s beyond ironic to see Rav Avigdor Miller being invoked as a defense of the legitimacy of Modern Orthodoxy as a whole.


I wasn’t invoking Reb Avigdor Miller as “a defense of the legitimacy of modern orthodoxy”. His views on the matter are well known and easily accessible online. It was in response to a post stating how many of these DDF threads with discussions on hashkofa on core issues in yiddishkeit devolve into antagonistic, confrontational and even mud slinging (such as the Kehot forgery thread). I think the quote I shared from RAM is important in that context. I hope that many others here relate to those words.

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #110 on: January 26, 2023, 11:55:57 AM »
This thread, aside for it’s  ill timed introduction and application, makes no sense. You cannot have any discussion about Modern Orthodoxy without defining it first.
I think the problem may begin when a discussion of the method of administration and operation in certain schools devolves into discussion of the overall Modox philosophy without regard to how the multitude of schools that are "Modern Orthodox" yet are also TU-affiliated may indicate that 3 interpetations of Rabbi Soloveitchik's view on Daas Torah regarding the Vietnam War may not be so relevant to the topic.

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #111 on: January 26, 2023, 12:01:22 PM »
And once we are at it, lets also define "Al Pi Daas Torah" [APDT]. Are Christians running their organizations APDT because they also "believe" in the "old" Testimate? What about Reform Jews? Can we settle on a definition?
Do you know that R Elya Svei said that those who call Rav Soloveitchik JB derogatorily are in the category of Mevazeh Talmid Chacham- V'ein Lo Chelek B'oilam Haboh? I don't think I must explain that comparing Modern Orthodox Jews to Christians ain't better.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #112 on: January 26, 2023, 12:08:30 PM »
This thread, aside for it’s  ill timed introduction and application, makes no sense. You cannot have any discussion about Modern Orthodoxy without defining it first.

That was the whole issue. People identifying as MO
run the gamut from chareidi to barely distinguishable from conservative

I haven't seen "full-throated defenses" of ideologies that run counter to halacha. I have seen and made full throated protests against painting with a broad brush and
denigrating massive swaths of the Chareidi community, not to mention many forum members. It belittles thousands of families who are yereim u'shleimim, and have not, ch"v, decided the "minimum is enough".

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #113 on: January 26, 2023, 12:22:34 PM »
Presumably those giving their full throated defense...
Particularly interesting is that people fail to understand that much of the centrist/left leaning swaths of MO embodies the ideology of Moses Mendelssohn and the original very conservative haskala.
Great way of stereotyping me and my understanding. I am a proud alumnus of a Lakewood Yeshivah that imparts a VERY Yeshivish Shitah into their Talmidim. But I just try not to make the mistake of not thinking through things to understand what's being given over. For example, there was construction for a few months near our Yeshiva building. The question was raised by certain Bochurim: If I'm walking past the site and one of the workers says Good Morning to me, may I answer Mipnei Hashalom, or is it Loi Sechunaim?[it was Poshut to them that you can't be Makdim Shalom]  When they didn't trust my opinion [Say good morning to them first, they're human] I sent them around to the Rabbeim to be set straight.
 Classic example of missing the boat for the bathwater ;)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 12:29:57 PM by bochur22 »

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #114 on: January 26, 2023, 01:23:38 PM »
Do you know that R Elya Svei said that those who call Rav Soloveitchik JB derogatorily are in the category of Mevazeh Talmid Chacham- V'ein Lo Chelek B'oilam Haboh? I don't think I must explain that comparing Modern Orthodox Jews to Christians ain't better.
100%
If every modern orthodox school was run al pi the daas Torah of Rav Soleveichik the Jewish world would be in a much better place.

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #115 on: January 26, 2023, 02:03:10 PM »
If every modern orthodox school was run al pi the daas Torah of Rav Soleveichik the Jewish world would be in a much better place.
Do you have evidence that most aren't before trashing the lot of them as not torah-true? Suggestion: Check out the Torah Umesorah website for their list of schools which are run under their guidance. See how they only approve schools from Yeshivish places and with Yeshivish- sounding names. Such as the Bi-Cultural Hebrew School of Stamford (Self- Described as Modern Orthodox, $18,000 tuition per year, ring a bell?), Lisa Kampner Hebrew Academy in San Francisco, or the Mizel Jewish Day School of Tulsa,OK.

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #116 on: January 26, 2023, 04:56:57 PM »
Great way of stereotyping me and my understanding.
I’m not quite sure what you mean and I wasn’t specifically referring to you.
I am a proud alumnus of a Lakewood Yeshivah that imparts a VERY Yeshivish Shitah into their Talmidim.
Ah. This would explain the lack of understanding of modern orthodox ideology and how you would make the mistake of thinking that most modern orthodox schools consult with and follow “daas Torah” when so many of so called modern orthodox simply reject the concept as a newfound idea, and the ones who acknowledge it are wolds apart from “chareidim” in their understanding of it.
For example, there was construction for a few months near our Yeshiva building. The question was raised by certain Bochurim: If I'm walking past the site and one of the workers says Good Morning to me, may I answer Mipnei Hashalom, or is it Loi Sechunaim?[it was Poshut to them that you can't be Makdim Shalom]  When they didn't trust my opinion [Say good morning to them first, they're human] I sent them around to the Rabbeim to be set straight.
Don’t get the relevance but that’s a very nice story. Keep up the good work. IIRC Rav yochanon was מקדים שלום לכל אדם אפילו עכום בשוק so I’m not chapping the tumult, but I’m glad you sorted it out.

Offline gozalim

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #117 on: January 26, 2023, 06:59:30 PM »
Such as the Bi-Cultural Hebrew School of Stamford (Self- Described as Modern Orthodox, $18,000 tuition per year, ring a bell?), Lisa Kampner Hebrew Academy in San Francisco, or the Mizel Jewish Day School of Tulsa,OK.
pretty sure that at least some of these aren't even orthodox

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #118 on: January 27, 2023, 05:02:49 AM »
Do you have evidence that most aren't before trashing the lot of them as not torah-true? Suggestion: Check out the Torah Umesorah website for their list of schools which are run under their guidance. See how they only approve schools from Yeshivish places and with Yeshivish- sounding names. Such as the Bi-Cultural Hebrew School of Stamford (Self- Described as Modern Orthodox, $18,000 tuition per year, ring a bell?), Lisa Kampner Hebrew Academy in San Francisco, or the Mizel Jewish Day School of Tulsa,OK.
First of all, calm down. You seem to take this whole conversation as a personal insult to you. It's not. No one knows you, your family, or your friends.
Secondly, no one is trashing anything. We are simply debating if Modern Orthodox schools can be considered Torah True.
Thirdly, since when does Torah Umesorah have a monopoly of deciding if a school is run APDT? Do they even make this claim about these schools?
While it seems that pretty much everyone agrees to some degree that Modern Orthodox means (which is why they don't call themselves plain Orthodox) that they are trying to "modernize" Orthodoxy, from this conversation and from things people have said, there seems to be different degrees to which the MO are "modernizing". Some are sticking true to Torah Hashkofos and Halacha (perhaps like the schools you point out), and in such a situation, they would be Torah True. They just also may put a heavy emphasis on secular studies as well and other such things.
But many, as we all know, (and please don't try to deny,) are not run in accordance with the proper Hashkofos and not even Halacha. If they are co-ed past a certain age then that goes against basic Halacha. If they teach the girls Gemara it goes against basic Halacha. Of course if there is a special reason they do that and they have a Heter from a Rav then they aren't necessarily doing the wrong thing, but it would be hard to say that its Torah True...

Offline JMHO

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #119 on: January 27, 2023, 05:43:37 AM »