Author Topic: “Torah true schools”?  (Read 14345 times)

Offline skyguy918

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2023, 10:49:40 AM »
https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/are-women-permitted-to-study-gemara-by-rabbi-howard-jachter
Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik taught women Gemara at the inaugural Shiur delivered at the Stern College Bait Midrash and instituted girls' study of Gemara at the Maimonides School in Boston.
Just a general comment on RYBS. His talmidim occupy an extremely wide range of the spectrum of Judaism, and each one more or less claims that their derech is the true legacy of their Rebbi. Some are extremely charedi while others are pushing the boundaries of the modern in MO.

ETA: Realized I put RYBS and not RYDS, but again, how he is referred to depends on which branch of his talmidim you're listening to.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 10:56:42 AM by skyguy918 »

Offline EliJelly

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2023, 02:49:16 PM »
The Chofetz Chaim's Heter to teach Chumash

Is there a concrete source for this?

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2023, 03:03:37 PM »
FTFY
Curious what you base this on. Are you familiar with MO ideology on Daas Torah?

Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #143 on: January 28, 2023, 02:03:19 PM »
Curious what you base this on. Are you familiar with MO ideology on Daas Torah?
All I meant was that its was a horrible quote that shouldn't be repeated.  I also  wanted  you to clarify that it wasn't what you truly believe. ( I know that it was a quote but I don't think it was clear in the original post)  As per the discussion itself I don't think this is the proper forum for honest discussion about it.

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #144 on: January 28, 2023, 08:29:17 PM »
Is there a concrete source for this?
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Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #145 on: January 28, 2023, 11:19:46 PM »
Found this entertaining and pertinent. If this is too personal for anyone please do not be offended. Just skip it.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/labels-belong-on-clothing/
Quote
To help alleviate the fear and confusion regarding this matter, I submit, as a public service, this elucidation of some of the more common labels, stereotypes, and generalizations. I reserve judgment on the accuracy and fairness of these perceptions, and assure the more sensitive readers that I mean to offend no one.

The three most common labels among Jews who claim to observe the Torah (both Written and Oral) are Modern Orthodox, yeshivish, and chassidish. In the olden days (fifteen years ago or so), it was fairly simple. Modern Orthodox Jews saw themselves as synthesizing the spirituality of a Torah lifestyle with active participation in the world at large. Yeshivish Jews saw themselves as exclusively dedicated to Torah study and observance, with involvement in the world at large to be minimized, if not entirely shunned. Yeshivish Jews viewed Modern Orthodox Jews as hedonists who did not value a true Torah lifestyle. Modern Orthodox Jews viewed yeshivish Jews as unsophisticated hypocrites who were overly stringent about what butter they ingested, among other things. Obviously, marriage between the two was impossible.

Then things became complicated. The Modern Orthodox took exception to the charges that they scorned halacha. We do not go to mixed dances, they claimed. We keep kosher in all its details, they claimed. We study Torah on the highest levels, they claimed. And just like that, a new label was born: Modern Orthodox Machmir or Right (as opposed to Meikil or Left). These Jews suffer from a rare form of schizophrenia, for to be Modern Orthodox is to be lax, and to be machmir is to be unduly strict. It really can be hard to be a Jew!

Before the dust settled, a new hashkafa emerged: Black Hat Type! This is an interesting hashkafa. It used to be that one wore a hat to accentuate the person beneath. Nowadays the hat is often viewed as the defining feature, and the person an interchangeable part. Therefore, many people wear a black hat to demonstrate that they believe in all the things that one who wears a black hat is supposed to believe in. But if one believes in all these things to the extent that he is a Black Hat Type, why does he not wear the black hat? How else can we know that he is truly a Black Hat Type if he does not wear the black hat, and why would he want to leave room for doubt? The statement is thus self-contradictory. Those who wear black hats can marry anyone who wishes to marry someone who wears a black hat. Those who are merely Black Hat Types can marry virtually no one. But they have only themselves to blame.

https://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/11/you-might-be-modern-orthodox-if_13.html
Quote
You Might Be Modern Orthodox If...
Gil Student
What does it mean to be Modern Orthodox (MO)? I don't think that there is a single definition because the MO community is, for better or for worse, a big tent. From my perspective, sitting on the fence between the Ultra-Orthodox (UO) and MO communities, I have an interest in where the division lies. Both communities have members who are not fully observant or, as some call them, the MO-lite and the UO-lite. The MO community is often more attractive to the O-lite membership because it generally allows for greater individualism and privacy. But there are plenty of O-lite people who like the heimishe atmosphere or simply prefer to have the Judaism that they don't fully observe be more "authentic" or at least consistent with their ingrained views of what Judaism should be.

But back to the main point, here are some views that would qualify someone as MO. For some of these people, it is possible that holding only one is insufficient and you need to accept more. Members of the left wing of the UO world, what Dr. Alan Brill calls the "Engaged Haredi" community, might hold some of these views. This makes defining the line between LWUO and RWMO somewhat difficult. But it is clear that you need not hold all of these views in order to be MO.

So, with apologies to Jeff Foxworthy, let me suggest that, assuming your beliefs are Orthodox, you might be Modern Orthodox if...

1. You approve of exploring some or much of general culture in order to find beauty and meaning in it (Torah im Derekh Eretz).
2. You believe that studying some or many areas of secular studies is valuable for more than just earning a living (Torah u-Madda type 1).
3. You see value in using some academic methods in the study of at least some areas of Torah (Torah u-Madda type 2).
4. You give the views of experts in any field serious consideration.
5. You believe that expertise requires serious training.
6. You encourage greater participation of women in the Jewish community.
7. Mingling of the genders, whether in educational or social contexts, is OK with you.
8. You dismiss the infallibility, omniscience and supernatural powers of rabbis.
9. You see the establishment of the State of Israel as a religiously meaningful event.
10. You think people should dress in the style of clothing they like rather than communal uniforms.

Note that stringency and meticulousness in halakhah is not on this list.

Offline aygart

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #146 on: January 28, 2023, 11:34:55 PM »
Found this entertaining and pertinent. If this is too personal for anyone please do not be offended. Just skip it.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/labels-belong-on-clothing/
https://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/11/you-might-be-modern-orthodox-if_13.html
4. You give the views of experts in any field serious consideration.
5. You believe that expertise requires serious training.

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #148 on: January 29, 2023, 01:02:07 AM »
https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/are-women-permitted-to-study-gemara-by-rabbi-howard-jachter
Rabbi Jachter is a tremendous תלמיד חכם and ירא שמים whom I have spoken to multiple times. That said, I'd like to respectfully critique this article that was quoted. He is a prolific writer and mistakes are inevitable.

Firstly there is a critical flaw with the article. It fails to acknowledge that there is a recognized chiluk in Chazal which is expounded upon by the Rishonim between תורה שבעל פה and תורה שבכתב. The Chofetz Chaim wrote his heter in regards to תורה שבכתב, which although some say isn't לכתחילה, was never included כאלו מלמדה תפלות.
To write:
Quote
Even though the Chafetz Chaim endorsed the Bait Yaakov movement he did not specifically approve the teaching of Gemara to women.
Which makes it sound like he didn't say it explicitly but would've perhaps said so, is a distortion.
Quote
Undoubtedly, the Rav's prescription was more far‑reaching than that of the Chafetz Chaim and others.  But the difference in magnitude should not obscure their fundamental agreement: intuitively, it is clear that the guidelines of the Talmud in Masechet Sotah were never intended for our epoch. This is not an instance of modernism, but Torah intuition.
No, there is no fundamental agreement at all. The Chafetz Chaim would not and did not allow something which the Talmud says in כמלמדה תפלות.
Quote
Rav Eliezer Waldenberg's Teshuvot Tzitz Eliezer (9:3), based on the Chafetz Chaim appears to concur with that of Rav Twersky.
That is simply not true at all.

Offline gozalim

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #149 on: January 29, 2023, 02:38:11 PM »
it would seem that gil student's #8 is what got this conversation started

Offline Anony Mouse

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #150 on: January 30, 2023, 12:07:04 AM »
Testing

Offline Anony Mouse

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #151 on: January 30, 2023, 12:10:29 AM »
For more on Modern Orthodox, check out this blog

https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/

It seems to be a parody of Natan Slifkin's anti Charedi blog, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com




Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #152 on: January 30, 2023, 03:02:00 PM »
Firstly there is a critical flaw with the article. It fails to acknowledge that there is a recognized chiluk in Chazal which is expounded upon by the Rishonim between תורה שבעל פה and תורה שבכתב. The Chofetz Chaim wrote his heter in regards to תורה שבכתב, which although some say isn't לכתחילה, was never included כאלו מלמדה תפלות.
He is Matir Pirkei Avois as well, which ain't Toirah Sheb'ksav

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #153 on: January 30, 2023, 03:03:53 PM »
To write:Which makes it sound like he didn't say it explicitly but would've perhaps said so, is a distortion.No, there is no fundamental agreement at all. The Chafetz Chaim would not and did not allow something which the Talmud says in כמלמדה תפלות.That is simply not true at all.
The Chofetz Chaim actually writes that the concept of K'melamda Tiflus was applicable back then and isn't useful now. Please read the original source: Likutei Halachos Sotah 21b

Offline EliJelly

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #154 on: January 30, 2023, 03:04:01 PM »
He is Matir Pirkei Avois as well, which ain't Toirah Sheb'ksav

That's part of מוסרי חז׳׳ל which is permitted.

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #155 on: January 30, 2023, 03:04:24 PM »
He is Matir Pirkei Avois as well, which ain't Toirah Sheb'ksav
He clearly puts it into a category of מוסרי חז״ל. This has nothing to to with learning Gemara and any insinuation otherwise is a horrific distortion.

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #156 on: January 30, 2023, 03:04:59 PM »
The Chofetz Chaim actuallt writes that the concept of K'melamda Tiflus was applicable back then and isn't useful now. Please read the original source: Likutei Halachos Sotah 21b
Maybe you should read it?

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #157 on: January 30, 2023, 03:05:32 PM »
Maybe you should read it?
Did this morning. Thanks

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #158 on: January 30, 2023, 03:06:42 PM »
He clearly puts it into a category of מוסרי חז״ל. This has nothing to to with learning Gemara and any insinuation otherwise is a horrific distortion.
If you want to go with the category of Mussarei Chazal, then is it a far leap to Aggadetah Gemara?

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #159 on: January 30, 2023, 03:07:21 PM »
Did this morning. Thanks
Lol. You need to read it again. For your convenience here it is
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