“Torah true schools”?

[CountValentine]

Pinging @NYT!!! 

[chinagel]

There'd also be less of a reaction if it wouldnt be coming from someone who already has made it clear that he can't see past his daled amos

At least you're honest what your real issue is here.

I split this topic off

What's it doing in GD?

[Moshe Green]

Here's a study that was done on Modern Orthodoxy, if anyone is interested in actually knowing the facts instead of just ripping those who are pointing them out:
https://www.jewishdatabank.org/api/download/?studyId=851&mediaId=bjdb%5c2017_Summary_-_Profile_of_American_Modern_Orthodox_Jews_09-27-17.pdf

key takeaways:
only 45% of open orthodox and 53% liberal modern orthodox put on teffilin every day
49% of open and 38% of liberal modern orthodox levels of observance in children are dropping (only 24%/34% going up)
Only 53% of the above modern orthodox groups feel orthodoxy is important part of one's life
only 33% of modern orthodox claim to attend shul every morning. I guarantee you that's not from the open/liberal ones...

[YitzyS]

Asking for a friend... Is it called "Torah True" to bash Rav Uren Reich and Rabbi Eli Stefansky?

#DoesNotChapTheMatzav
#WackaMoleTroll

[AsherO]

There are plenty of good Chareidi Schools that have a great general studies department (i was in such a place and actually took college courses while in high school) that don't charge $20,000 a year.
It would be a shame to see someone spend that much just to see his children 10 years later go to Harvard, marry a goy, and have non-Jewish grandchildren. These are the results of the Ivy League Modox places. Sorry for letting all those innocent Jews out there who love everyone and everything know the facts.
Just because you let someone know the facts of a certain mode of life doesn't mean you hate that mode of life. Plenty of my relatives are modorn orthodox and i love them all. but they are still destroying the future of their kids.

So basically OTD is a MoDox problem and if everyone was Charedi to your standards the OTD problem wouldn’t exist?

How many of your modox cousins are r”l intermarried. If your answer is 0% then your claims are BS.

[dm123]

So basically OTD is a MoDox problem and if everyone was Charedi to your standards the OTD problem wouldn’t exist?

I was glancing at the otd nishma survey, and it seems MO otd are more likely to have a problem with intermarriage than chareidi otders. But I don't think Moshe Green is talking about otders, he's trying to point out that it seems for MO certain aspects of Judaism seem to be less "central" or not as "taken for granted" than in chareidi circles.

[S209]

key takeaways:
53% liberal modern orthodox put on teffilin every day

Sounds like 3% too many, which makes sense

[Moshe Green]

Sounds like 3% too many, which makes sense

i think its 50% liberal women
and 3% men

[Moshe Green]

i think this conversation has gone WAAAYYYY off topic.

We had a fellow who said that he would like to send his children to Yeshiva but could not afford $20,000x3 children.
Somebody (maybe it waas AsherO) said that the standard Chareidi School does not charge 20,000 per child.
I +1ed that and explained that the Torah-True schools don't charge so much. This was based on the fact that he was looking to grow in his Yiddishkeit while i believe that most of the 20,000 are ok if the students stay on a lower level of Yiddishkeit. Someone then suggested that they send to a modern orthodox place. Which i disagreed with for obvious reasons.
Then the whole conversation blew up. Obviously if you say something like that you hate them, etc. etc.

But lets go back to the conversation.
Do the Liberal Modern Orthodox schools think that they are Torah-True? If so, why should i think they are? There are 70 Panim l'Torah, not 70,000.
Is it true that a high percentage go off to ivy league schools and many go off the derech and of those many marry goyim? i think yes, do you disagree?
Why would anyone suggest that a person trying to grow should not go to a Chareidi place and instead go to a modern place? i think there is no reason, do you disagree?

Please stop bashing for the sake of bashing and give some good reasons why i am wrong. I would love to hear. And maybe we can all learn something new.

[JMHO]

i think this conversation has gone WAAAYYYY off topic.

I wonder why...

[drosenberg88429]

There are answers to questions, but no answers to answers.

[dm123]

I was glancing at the otd nishma survey, and it seems MO otd are more likely to have a problem with intermarriage than chareidi otders.

Just to clarify - MO OTDers DO NOT want their children intermarrying. "Chareidi" OTDers don't care that much if their kids end up intermarrying.

[AsherO]

i think this conversation has gone WAAAYYYY off topic.

We had a fellow who said that he would like to send his children to Yeshiva but could not afford $20,000x3 children.
Somebody (maybe it waas AsherO) said that the standard Chareidi School does not charge 20,000 per child.
I +1ed that and explained that the Torah-True schools don't charge so much. This was based on the fact that he was looking to grow in his Yiddishkeit while i believe that most of the 20,000 are ok if the students stay on a lower level of Yiddishkeit. Someone then suggested that they send to a modern orthodox place. Which i disagreed with for obvious reasons.
Then the whole conversation blew up. Obviously if you say something like that you hate them, etc. etc.

But lets go back to the conversation.
Do the Liberal Modern Orthodox schools think that they are Torah-True? If so, why should i think they are? There are 70 Panim l'Torah, not 70,000.
Is it true that a high percentage go off to ivy league schools and many go off the derech and of those many marry goyim? i think yes, do you disagree?
Why would anyone suggest that a person trying to grow should not go to a Chareidi place and instead go to a modern place? i think there is no reason, do you disagree?

Please stop bashing for the sake of bashing and give some good reasons why i am wrong. I would love to hear. And maybe we can all learn something new.

You can see the chain of discussion from the OP of this topic (click on the link of the comment you’re quoting, it wasn’t mine, it was a post that +1’d my post).

Neither the post you quoted or the one it was responding (that one was mine) to made any reference to Modern Orthodox schools, you were the first the mention it and bash it. The OP wasn’t asking for it and you chose your unsolicited and judgmental hashkafic advice. Making this an argument about whether your assessment of MO schools (later you add the term liberal) is correct or not is besides the point. The point is that the OP in that thread never asked for the hashkafic advice and you were the first to offer it and in a vitriolic way.

[Moshe Green]

Neither the post you quoted or the one it was responding (that one was mine) to made any reference to Modern Orthodox schools, you were the first the mention it and bash it.

Please explain why saying that its not Torah-true is bashing. Facts doesn't mean bashing. I ask again, if they don't believe they are Torah-true why shouldn't we state that as a fact.

The OP wasn’t asking for it and you chose your unsolicited and judgmental hashkafic advice.

He was asking how he can get his kids into a Yeshiva when he can't afford the 20,000 a kid. He was asking for advice. We are all judgmental in what we believe in. It's called being Human. What Human's also can do is explain why another Human is wrong. Please feel free to explain why my "judgmental" advice was wrong.

Making this an argument about whether your assessment of MO schools (later you add the term liberal) is correct or not is besides the point. The point is that the OP in that thread never asked for the hashkafic advice and you were the first to offer it and in a vitriolic way.

I disagree with you. It is entirely up to me to argue against another poster who suggested that he send to a MO school. In fact everyone in this thread who reads that comment has a Chiuv to argue against it. It's called Ahavas Yisroel and Kol Yisrael Areivim Zeh LoZeh.

[SSLPhD]

I disagree with you. It is entirely up to me to argue against another poster who suggested that he send to a MO school. In fact everyone in this thread who reads that comment has a Chiuv to argue against it. It's called Ahavas Yisroel and Kol Yisrael Areivim Zeh LoZeh.

Do you have experience moving kids from public school to yeshiva?  Perhaps you do, but your posts are coming across as hot-headed with no actual knowledge of the issues.

[Moshe Green]

Do you have experience moving kids from public school to yeshiva?  Perhaps you do, but your posts are coming across as hot-headed with no actual knowledge of the issues.

I have not had the Zechus to have experience in such matters. Can you share some of the issues that come up and let us know how you dealt with them?

[Lurker]

This thread is an great example of, "Those who know do not speak, while those who speak do not know."

[AsherO]

Please explain why saying that its not Torah-true is bashing. Facts doesn't mean bashing. I ask again, if they don't believe they are Torah-true why shouldn't we state that as a fact. He was asking how he can get his kids into a Yeshiva when he can't afford the 20,000 a kid. He was asking for advice. We are all judgmental in what we believe in. It's called being Human. What Human's also can do is explain why another Human is wrong. Please feel free to explain why my "judgmental" advice was wrong.I disagree with you. It is entirely up to me to argue against another poster who suggested that he send to a MO school. In fact everyone in this thread who reads that comment has a Chiuv to argue against it. It's called Ahavas Yisroel and Kol Yisrael Areivim Zeh LoZeh.

Everyone has biases, but not everyone reads their biases into what isn’t said to impose their hashkafic opinions. You should exercise judgement instead of imposing it. All of this gatekeeping about what is and isn’t Torah true was unsolicited, nobody even mentioned anything about modern orthodox schools until you did, you can go and see for yourself. Also, just because you call your opinion fact, doesn’t make it actually factual.

Can you establish that anyone solicited your opinion? and that you were reacting to anything actually stated in that thread rather than going on your self-righteous crusade? If not, then the burden of proof is first on you, because making me have to explain why your sentiments are wrong.

I challenge you to find one Kiruv professional who will support your position in that topic, the OPs question, the discussion until your comment, and that your unsolicited comment is not out of place.

[Yehuda57]

Kiruv professional

This is painful enough to read as it is, but from a Lubavitcher? Oy.

[bochur22]

It is entirely up to me to argue against another poster who suggested that he send to a MO school. In fact everyone in this thread who reads that comment has a Chiuv to argue against it. It's called Ahavas Yisroel and Kol Yisrael Areivim Zeh LoZeh.

No one can change anyone else's mind. And the drive to criticize and be moicheh can also be coming from other places. As the Mesilas Yeshorim writes: והטעות השניה והיא קשה מן הראשונה היא שמטעה ראייתם עד שרואים הרע כאלו הוא ממש טוב, והטוב כאילו הוא רע,
The second error, and this is even worse than the first, is that [the darkness] distorts their sight until they literally see evil as if it were good and good as if it were evil. .
   אך המשמוש היא החקירה אפילו במעשים הטובים עצמם, .לחקור ולראות היש בענינם איזה פניה אשר לא טובה או איזה חלק רע שיצטרך להסירו ולבערו.
"Feeling out" (mishmush) of deeds, on the other hand, is investigation even on the good deeds themselves to inspect and see if they contain any motive which is not good or any evil component which he needs to remove and eradicate.