“Torah true schools”?

[Lurker]

Saw this pic posted on a friend's whatsapp status, along with his observation that there are many different paths to get to the etzem.

"Torah True" is a term that can be correct, but only if you're able to accept that it includes paths which aren't necessarily your own. Torah is built with different paths and opinions, and it's still all Torah. Taking a huge dump on someone else's mehaleich is the antithesis of "Torah True."

[YitzyS]

Saw this pic posted on a friend's whatsapp status, along with his observation that there are many different paths to get to the etzem.

"Torah True" is a term that can be correct, but only if you're able to accept that it includes paths which aren't necessarily your own. Torah is built with different paths and opinions, and it's still all Torah. Taking a huge dump on someone else's mehaleich is the antithesis of "Torah True."

No, but only one of four of those paths actually reach the etzem...
-Whackatroll

[yelped]

Saw this pic posted on a friend's whatsapp status, along with his observation that there are many different paths to get to the etzem.

"Torah True" is a term that can be correct, but only if you're able to accept that it includes paths which aren't necessarily your own. Torah is built with different paths and opinions, and it's still all Torah. Taking a huge dump on someone else's mehaleich is the antithesis of "Torah True."

Iirc, I saw this example from a very early source. Maybe I'll remember more in the AM.

[Definitions]

-1
If they are getting stronger in their Yiddishkeit then Modern Orthodox is not the way to go. Modern Orthodox is for those who have decided that the minimum is enough for them. A good strong Chareidi Cheder/Yeshiva/Beis Yaakov is the way to go.

I don't think that would be the correct move unless they were advised to do that from someone that knows the family.
I think that you yourself doubt this statement of yours.

[Moshe Green]

Having been in Israel for a year and a half now, it seems the societal outlook, especially on Gedoilim (who are made into celebrities through over the top PR), is much more black-and-white then the view in America. As a Litvak, I can still Fargin that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was big even if I don't hold of every single thing he did. (Not coming to get into that nitty gritty) One who is an Eitznik has pretty much only that as his identity. A gimmelnik can't accept him at face value. The value of Eilu V'eilu Divrei Eloikim Chayim and Shivim Ponim L'toirah seems to be somewhat lost in Israeli society.

I agree. it is hard here to respect everyone's opinion. What makes it even harder is that there's politics involved as well with 5-7 Chareidi parties involved plus a number of Mizrachi parties as well. On the other hand, people are much stronger in their beliefs and are willing much more to sacrifice and fight for what they believe in.

[Moshe Green]

Saw this pic posted on a friend's whatsapp status, along with his observation that there are many different paths to get to the etzem.

"Torah True" is a term that can be correct, but only if you're able to accept that it includes paths which aren't necessarily your own. Torah is built with different paths and opinions, and it's still all Torah. Taking a huge dump on someone else's mehaleich is the antithesis of "Torah True."

agreed but with one small edit.
Can i fix your comment?
Taking a huge dump on someone else's Legitimate and Torah mehaleich is the antithesis of "Torah True."

[bochur22]

On the other hand, people are much stronger in their beliefs and are willing much more to sacrifice and fight for what they believe in.

I would hope you don't mean to insinuate that the American Gedoilim of this generation and the last who were Machshiv each other even if they disagree weren't strong in their beliefs. Talmidei Shammai V'Hillel held strongly in their Shittos, yet their children married each other. Having an understanding Al Pi Toirah doesn't mean you have to kick over everyone else's beliefs. And before you tell me that Modern Orthodox beliefs are all not based in Toirah at all, and can't be accepted no matter what, I would urge you to listen to the recording of the meeting Reb Elya Svei, Rav Pam, and the Novominsker Rebbe Zichroinom Levrocho had with YU rabbonim, where they articulated the position of the Oilam Hayeshivois very well. But they DO NOT trash everything done by Modox schools.

[Moshe Green]

I would hope you don't mean to insinuate that the American Gedoilim of this generation and the last who were Machshiv each other even if they disagree weren't strong in their beliefs. Talmidei Shammai V'Hillel held strongly in their Shittos, yet their children married each other.

C"V, i wasn't talking about the gedolim. I was talking about the Hamon Am. The average Joe in America doesn't have his beliefs challenged as often as an Israeli Jew does. When one is challenged he builds his beliefs stronger.

Having an understanding Al Pi Toirah doesn't mean you have to kick over everyone else's beliefs.

correct.

And before you tell me that Modern Orthodox beliefs are all not based in Toirah at all, and can't be accepted no matter what, I would urge you to listen to the recording of the meeting Reb Elya Svei, Rav Pam, and the Novominsker Rebbe Zichroinom Levrocho had with YU rabbonim, where they articulated the position of the Oilam Hayeshivois very well.

Who said that "Modern Orthodox beliefs are all not based in Toirah at all" and they, "can't be accepted no matter what"? It wasn't me.
I said that they weren't Torah-True. Do you believe that Modern Orthodox schools run al pi das Torah? Which Gedoilim do they ask before they open a school? Do they ask those Rabbanim everytime there is a major policy decision?

But they DO NOT trash everything done by Modox schools.

Please read the whole thread. The "trashing" that you mention was a comment or two based on the fact that they are not Torah-True schools (that's the name of the thread). I don't consider it bashing but speaking out the facts to let the OP (who was worried about the cost of tuition) know the type of school that he is thinking of sending his kids to. Do you consider that "trashing"?

I believe that there are people putting words in my mouth (and mind reading) based on their preconceived notions of what is ok and not ok to speak out. If everyone would just calm down, take a deep breath, take a step back, and take a good look, we could all agree on most of what was said. Maybe we disagree on the way it was said, but i think that we would all agree on 99% of the facts.

[AsherO]

Just to get the record straight the name of this thread is “Torah true schools”? including the quotes and the question-mark, it was inspired by your comment MG, and it’s a classic no-true-Scotsman fallacy especially as you presented it in this topic.

[Yehuda57]

Against better judgment:

Who said that "Modern Orthodox beliefs are all not based in Toirah at all" and they, "can't be accepted no matter what"? It wasn't me.
I said that they weren't Torah-True. Do you believe that Modern Orthodox schools run al pi das Torah? Which Gedoilim do they ask before they open a school? Do they ask those Rabbanim everytime there is a major policy decision?Please read the whole thread. The "trashing" that you mention was a comment or two based on the fact that they are not Torah-True schools (that's the name of the thread). I don't consider it bashing but speaking out the facts to let the OP (who was worried about the cost of tuition) know the type of school that he is thinking of sending his kids to. Do you consider that "trashing"?

You make broad sweeping statements, and then when called out, make up your own distinctions and expect everyone else to go with them like they are established facts on the ground. So Torah True and based on Torah are two different gedarim which we should all understand at the outset. You did the same thing when defining MO. First you said MO who only want to send kids to Ivy League schools and don't care about Torah, and then later classified these schools "liberal Moden Orthodox" (whatever that means), and not "chas veshalom" frum MO.

How is anyone supposed to discuss anything based on your own made-up criteria that keep shifting. Which "gedolim" were asked before school XYZ opened in Lakewood, Brooklyn, or Yerushalayim? Do they all meet your approval? Of course every school has its own leadership and hashkafah. You maligned ALL MO charging 20k as not "Torah True" which is absolutely trashing them. You have no idea if the Chareidi schools you are championing as a whole have Daas Torah they consult or how they make decisions, you just made up distinctions out of whole cloth and maligned tens of thousands of Jews who are frum, ehrliche Yidden dedicated to "Torah True" hashkafos.

You have absolutely no idea which schools charge what tuition. There are numerous frum schools that charge more than that for tuition. And yes, calling self proclaimed Orthodox schools not "Torah True" - even if you are correct - would absolutely be trashing them.

I believe that there are people putting words in my mouth (and mind reading) based on their preconceived notions of what is ok and not ok to speak out. If everyone would just calm down, take a deep breath, take a step back, and take a good look, we could all agree on most of what was said. Maybe we disagree on the way it was said, but i think that we would all agree on 99% of the facts.

No one is putting words into your mouth, you just keep changing what the words you say mean. If anything, we have undersold how inflammatory your statements are. MO is not Torah True, only cares about Ivy League schools but not Torah, doesn't want to grow in Yiddishkeit, children will likely go "off the derech", marry out, and who knows what else.

[bochur22]

C"V, i wasn't talking about the gedolim. I was talking about the Hamon Am. The average Joe in America doesn't have his beliefs challenged as often as an Israeli Jew does. When one is challenged he builds his beliefs stronger.

I think that the siloing effect may actually be stronger here in Israel. The newspapers here won't bother acknowledging anything inconvenient to their party's narrative. Social media isn't as prevalent by Chareidim. Anyone who doesn't share the exact make and model of the one he talks to is dumped to the side and dismissed as a Koifer, Rasha, Kannoi, or Tzioni depending on which of the stereotypes the "offended party" would like to use.

[bochur22]

Who said that "Modern Orthodox beliefs are all not based in Toirah at all" and they, "can't be accepted no matter what"? It wasn't me.
I said that they weren't Torah-True. Do you believe that Modern Orthodox schools run al pi das Torah? Which Gedoilim do they ask before they open a school? Do they ask those Rabbanim everytime there is a major policy decision?

If they are based in Torah, what makes them "not Torah true"?  Do you know for a fact that these places don't ask for Rabinnic advice? I believe many, if not most Modern Orthodox schools are run under Daas Torah. Many Modern Orthodox day schools are actually under the Torah U'mesorah umbrella. My definition of who can be Daas Torah for anyone in Klal Yisroel isn't limited to 3 gedolim. I would guess that you would not consider Rav Soloveitchik to be a legitimate Daas Torah, but if you listen to the recording I referenced above, quite a few mentions are made of him in a positive light as a Talmid Chacham and a Gadol

[imayid2]

If they are based in Torah, what makes them "not Torah true"?  Do you know for a fact that these places don't ask for Rabinnic advice? I believe many, if not most Modern Orthodox schools are run under Daas Torah. Many Modern Orthodox day schools are actually under the Torah U'mesorah umbrella. My definition of who can be Daas Torah for anyone in Klal Yisroel isn't limited to 3 gedolim. I would guess that you would not consider Rav Soloveitchik to be a legitimate Daas Torah, but if you listen to the recording I referenced above, you may be very surprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_authority#Orthodox_Judaism_and_da'as_Torah

https://www.jewishideas.org/article/daas-torah-may-not-be-answer-what-question
Modern Orthodox Jews do not recognize Da’as Torah outside the bounds of Halakha. They look to specialists, for example in the military or medical realms, for guidance on purely secular issues. They justify their attitude both because rabbinic greats ranging from R. Joseph B. Soloveichik to R. Ovadia  Yosef took this view, and because Da’as Torah has been on the wrong side of Jewish history in multiple occasions, failing the Jewish people at critical times in the recent past. These include opposing immigration to America or Israel when it was still possible before the invasion of Poland; opposition to the creation of the State of Israel; and opposition to public demonstrations to free Soviet Jewry. For the Modern Orthodox, therefore, Haredi rulings concerning responses to the coronavirus epidemic had little impact.

[bochur22]

https://www.jewishideas.org/article/daas-torah-may-not-be-answer-what-question
Modern Orthodox Jews do not recognize Da’as Torah outside the bounds of Halakha. They look to specialists, for example in the military or medical realms, for guidance on purely secular issues. They justify their attitude both because rabbinic greats ranging from R. Joseph B. Soloveichik to R. Ovadia  Yosef took this view, and because Da’as Torah has been on the wrong side of Jewish history in multiple occasions, failing the Jewish people at critical times in the recent past. These include opposing immigration to America or Israel when it was still possible before the invasion of Poland; opposition to the creation of the State of Israel; and opposition to public demonstrations to free Soviet Jewry. For the Modern Orthodox, therefore, Haredi rulings concerning responses to the coronavirus epidemic had little impact.

For argument's sake, Let's say most Modern Orthodox Jews hold this position (I don't think they do, but let's say) Education is still not a "Purely secular issue".
So by your own criteria they would still take Da'as Torah in regards to the running of their schools, thereby possibly making them, once again "Torah-true"

[Lurker]

The more I see this "Torah True" term, the more I want to vomit. It evokes the same feelings I have when I see "racial bias" or "micro-aggression." While all technically legitimate terms, they seem to be used exclusively by those with extremist ideologies, who are hell-bent on redefining them to fit their agendas. Yet another thread to avoid in the JS cesspool.

[rbs-g1.5]

I hope you didn"t really mean what you wrote here. You are basically saying that whenever you don"t agree with daas torah they were wrong.Every one of those opinions while not being agreed to by all gedolim have not been proven to be wrong. Obviously the hardest one  to understand is the immigration prior to the holocaust to a place that was at the time a makom shmad (or the equally endangered eretz yisoel  )but to say daas torah was proven wrong is ridiculous. I hope you meant to say that this is all in the eyes of modern orthodoxy ( we can disagree on that as well but maybe you think thats what they think of our gedolims daas tora )

Da’as Torah has been on the wrong side of Jewish history in multiple occasions, failing the Jewish people at critical times in the recent past. These include opposing immigration to America or Israel when it was still possible before the invasion of Poland; opposition to the creation of the State of Israel; and opposition to public demonstrations to free Soviet Jewry.

[bochur22]

I hope you didn"t really mean what you wrote here. You are basically saying that whenever you don"t agree with daas torah they were wrong.Every one of those opinions while not being agreed to by all gedolim have not been proven to be wrong. Obviously the hardest one  to understand is the immigration prior to the holocaust to a place that was at the time a makom shmad (or the equally dangerous palestine )but to say daas torah was proven wrong is ridiculous. I hope you meant to say that this is all in the eyes modern orthodoxy ( we can disagree on that as well but maybe you think thats what they think of our daas tora )

I think he was quoting something

[rbs-g1.5]

I think he was quoting something

it should be clarified,i am pretty sure he doesn't believe in what it says .

[imayid2]

it should be clarified,i am pretty sure he doesn't believe in what it says .

I am not involved in this conversation. Just setting the record straight on what *they* believe. (Who am I to bash another groups way of getting to the etzem. )

[Yehuda57]

I am not involved in this conversation. Just setting the record straight on what *they* believe. (Who am I to bash another groups way of getting to the etzem. )

Setting the record straight on what tens of thousands of MO Jews believe based on a decontextualized quote from a single article written by an individual whose bio on that very article doesn't mention a word about being any kind of spokesman or expert in what "they" believe?