Author Topic: “Torah true schools”?  (Read 5078 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2023, 04:15:10 PM »
Setting the record straight on what tens of thousands of MO Jews believe based on a decontextualized quote from an article written by an individual whose bio on that very site doesn't mention a word about being any kind of spokesman or expert in what "they" believe?

To set the record straight, modern orthodoxy is a very loosely defined term. Obviously that quote isn’t representative of a whole. But if you read the wiki link there is definitely fundamental differences.

Offline imayid2

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Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2023, 04:20:58 PM »
Obviously that horrible quote isn’t representative of a whole and shouldn't be quoted
FTFY

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2023, 04:30:34 PM »
To set the record straight, modern orthodoxy is a very loosely defined term. Obviously that quote isn’t representative of a whole. But if you read the wiki link there is definitely fundamental differences.

So, in a conversation* all about someone making massive generalizations about a group that runs the gamut from chareidi to barely distinguishable from conservative, you "set the record straight" with an unrepresentative quote? If I didn't know any better, I'd think you purposefully selected such a quote rather than any number of quotes from the tens of thousands of pages available about "MO" ideology that wouldn't be so mufrach to the average Chareidi.

*A conversation which you are not chas veshalom joining, wink wink, ha ha, just dropping controversial quotes and running, in similar vein to "I'm just asking questions."
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Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2023, 04:34:35 PM »
So, in a conversation* all about someone making massive generalizations about a group that runs the gamut from chareidi to barely distinguishable from conservative, you "set the record straight" with an unrepresentative quote? If I didn't know any better, I'd think you purposefully selected such a quote rather than any number of quotes from the tens of thousands of pages available about "MO" ideology that wouldn't be so mufrach to the average Chareidi.
I literally chose the first google result to show that there are people out there identifying as such proclaiming this.

The Wikipedia link more or less says this too.

Offline imayid2

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Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2023, 04:52:19 PM »
*A conversation which you are not chas veshalom joining, wink wink, ha ha, just dropping controversial quotes and running, in similar vein to "I'm just asking questions."
Before this devolves, let me be clear that I have no interest in being involved in the overall conversation about whether a vague all encompassing generalization of a group fits an undefined terminology. I was solely commenting to clear up the insinuation that there isn’t fundamental differences in how to view daas Torah between different groups.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2023, 05:11:17 PM »
I literally chose the first google result to show that there are people out there identifying as such proclaiming this.

The Wikipedia link more or less says this too.

Before this devolves, let me be clear that I have no interest in being involved in the overall conversation about whether a vague all encompassing generalization of a group fits an undefined terminology. I was solely commenting to clear up the insinuation that there isn’t fundamental differences in how to view daas Torah between different groups.

Then say that! Say, "There are fundamental differences in how groups view Daas Torah." This is the first Google result on my search for '....'". You didn't do that, you dropped a quote you knew would slant the conversation a certain way, and emojied your way out of being culpable for steering the conversation like that. Crying now that the conversation is going to "devolve" when you were just merely "setting the record straight" or "solely" commenting about insinuations no one made is troll behavior.
Quote from: ExGingi
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Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2023, 05:23:14 PM »
Then say that! Say, "There are fundamental differences in how groups view Daas Torah." This is the first Google result on my search for '....'". You didn't do that, you dropped a quote you knew would slant the conversation a certain way, and emojied your way out of being culpable for steering the conversation like that. Crying now that the conversation is going to "devolve" when you were just merely "setting the record straight" or "solely" commenting about insinuations no one made is troll behavior.
Or alternatively, you read things into what I wrote based on pre conceived notions, when in reality it was laser focused on the erroneous notion which I was responding to that modern orthodoxy in general views daaas Torah the same way chareidim do, and totally misconstrued a unrelated snide remark.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2023, 06:54:21 PM »
This thread needs:



Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline yelped

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2023, 11:29:31 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_authority#Orthodox_Judaism_and_da'as_Torah

https://www.jewishideas.org/article/daas-torah-may-not-be-answer-what-question
Modern Orthodox Jews do not recognize Da’as Torah outside the bounds of Halakha. They look to specialists, for example in the military or medical realms, for guidance on purely secular issues. They justify their attitude both because rabbinic greats ranging from R. Joseph B. Soloveichik to R. Ovadia  Yosef took this view, and because Da’as Torah has been on the wrong side of Jewish history in multiple occasions, failing the Jewish people at critical times in the recent past. These include opposing immigration to America or Israel when it was still possible before the invasion of Poland; opposition to the creation of the State of Israel; and opposition to public demonstrations to free Soviet Jewry. For the Modern Orthodox, therefore, Haredi rulings concerning responses to the coronavirus epidemic had little impact.
A. Chassidim don't have the same definition of "Daas Torah" that Litvaks have, either.

B. There were and are multiple views on those issues by various Gedolim, too.

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2023, 12:02:03 AM »
A. Chassidim don't have the same definition of "Daas Torah" that Litvaks have, either.

B. There were and are multiple views on those issues by various Gedolim, too.
True. Doesn't change the fact that this subject is one of the distinctions made between chareidim and "MO". It is widely discussed. And as such a to a post which assumed that most "MO" relates to Rabinnic advice the same way just with different gedolim
I believe many, if not most Modern Orthodox schools are run under Daas Torah.
I was pointing that out.
But absurdly it is being denied that there was any such insinuation
commenting about insinuations no one made

Offline aygart

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #92 on: January 25, 2023, 12:06:40 AM »
There are a number of "chareidi" schools that are "run under daas torah" by having them on their stationary and until they disagree with that daas torah.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2023, 12:16:02 AM »
There are a number of "chareidi" schools that are "run under daas torah" by having them on their stationary and until they disagree with that daas torah.
Of course. As well as I’m sure a number of MO schools who are actually run under DT.

Doesn’t change the legitimate generalization that MO views DT very differently than Chareidim.

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2023, 05:37:58 AM »
If they are based in Torah, what makes them "not Torah true"?  Do you know for a fact that these places don't ask for Rabinnic advice?
Torah-True implies being true to the Torah. [i don't know what is so hard for certain DDF members to understand this.] If they are true to the Torah [i.e. legitimate shitta] and they run al pi daas Torah [i.e. they make serious decisions only with rabbinic advice] then they are Torah True. But as someone  else pointed out, even many "Chareidi" places have serious issues with this, Kal Vachomer a place that doesn't respect Torah Authority.
Can we accept wikipedia's definition of Modern Orthodoxy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Orthodox_Judaism
"Modern Orthodox Judaism (also Modern Orthodox or Modern Orthodoxy) is a movement within Orthodox Judaism that attempts to synthesize Jewish values and the observance of Jewish law with the secular, modern world."
I believe many, if not most Modern Orthodox schools are run under Daas Torah.
I believe that you are naďve.
Many Modern Orthodox day schools are actually under the Torah U'mesorah umbrella. My definition of who can be Daas Torah for anyone in Klal Yisroel isn't limited to 3 gedolim. I would guess that you would not consider Rav Soloveitchik to be a legitimate Daas Torah, but if you listen to the recording I referenced above, quite a few mentions are made of him in a positive light as a Talmid Chacham and a Gadol
If every modern orthodox school was run al pi the daas Torah of Rav Soleveichik the Jewish world would be in amuch better place.

Offline JMHO

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2023, 05:41:21 AM »

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2023, 06:42:25 AM »
True. Doesn't change the fact that this subject is one of the distinctions made between chareidim and "MO". It is widely discussed. And as such a to a post which assumed that most "MO" relates to Rabinnic advice the same way just with different gedolim I was pointing that out.
But absurdly it is being denied that there was any such insinuation
I'll bold part of the quote that you yourself just quoted: most MO schools ARE RUN under Daas Torah
I didn't make a statement on their views of whether to rely on Daas Torah about the price of Avacados in Zimbabwe, but rather that in regards to education, which is a Jewish issue, many, if not most of Modern Orthodox schools have Rabbi's they ask and Officially follow

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2023, 06:48:53 AM »
Can we accept wikipedia's definition of Modern Orthodoxy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Orthodox_Judaism
Ummm.... how about, no

Offline bochur22

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2023, 06:50:03 AM »
Torah-True implies being true to the Torah. [i don't know what is so hard for certain DDF members to understand this.] If they are true to the Torah [i.e. legitimate shitta] and they run al pi daas Torah [i.e. they make serious decisions only with rabbinic advice] then they are Torah True. But as someone  else pointed out, even many "Chareidi" places have serious issues with this, Kal Vachomer a place that doesn't respect Torah Authority.
That's quite a generalization to make

Offline JMHO

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Re: “Torah true schools”?
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2023, 07:47:09 AM »
That's quite a generalization to make
Did you expect any less from this troll?