Author Topic: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals  (Read 6340 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2023, 06:32:41 PM »
At worst he was a Nazi sympathizer in a public interview,
Odd that the witness to interview the lawyer had said those remarks were never made.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2023, 06:34:31 PM »

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2023, 06:36:33 PM »
Who was the first?
Maybe everyone is confused or just me. Who are you saying was the first? I have no idea.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2023, 06:43:16 PM »
Maybe everyone is confused or just me. Who are you saying was the first? I have no idea.
You asked if the Jews were the first to believe in wiping out a race. I answered as far as I know yes. I guess the argument can be made that Amalek was first because they started first, but I don’t know if that was a “belief” of theirs that went along with their original actions, to completely exterminate the Jews. Perhaps. Not sure where it says that.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2023, 06:45:10 PM »
You asked if the Jews were the first to believe in wiping out a race. I answered as far as I know yes. I guess the argument can be made that Amalek was first because they started first, but I don’t know if that was a “belief” of theirs that went along with their original actions, to completely exterminate the Jews. Perhaps. Not sure where it says that.
That is what I thought you said. This should clear it up for everyone.
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Online yuneeq

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2023, 06:45:24 PM »
Odd that the witness to interview the lawyer had said those remarks were never made.

Not idea what you are saying here. But

Wow his lawyer must’ve had an open shut case! I wonder how his lawsuit turned out.
Visibly Jewish

Offline imayid2

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2023, 06:45:33 PM »
'דעת זקנים מבעלי תוס brings that the מצוה of תמחה is because עמלק is fighting against Klal Yisrael, and it's applicable in every דור
Where is this precisely? Sounds interesting I’d like to see it.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2023, 06:46:38 PM »
That is what I thought you said. This should clear it up for everyone.
So what faulty info did I provide?

Offline dm123

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2023, 06:47:02 PM »
Not idea what you are saying here. But

I think I saw they settled out of court. Any info on what that settlement was?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2023, 06:50:52 PM »
So what faulty info did I provide?
I took you saying the Jews were first and others are saying that is wrong. Your post cleared it up.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2023, 06:52:17 PM »
I think I saw they settled out of court. Any info on what that settlement was?
Have no idea but it won't matter. We are going to believe the Russia media from 25 years ago.  :)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 07:31:27 PM by CountValentine »
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Offline YitzyS

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2023, 07:00:08 PM »

I came here to post my thoughts, but I think you've summed them up pretty well. I'll just add one or two points.


Morality can never be decided by a human mind. As I've written before, the world is full of paradoxes, and it is literaly impossible to "just have mercy on everyone." The only real morality is that of Hashem, and it is completely irrelevant whether it fits with the mundane viewpoint or not.

The American culture has led people to believe that the notion of killing a child is automatically immoral. But the same value system has no qualms about murdering millions of children prior to their birth. A value system that is based on anything other than the word of Hashem is automatically corrupt.

The commandment to kill every man woman and child is 100 percent moral and correct. Because that is what Hashem said to do. You don't need to understand it, and I definitely don't need to apologize for it. ALL morality comes from Hashem, and the fact that it doesn't jibe with the American value system is not of the slightest concern to me, nor should it be a concern of any thinking person.




Now that the record is set - unequivocally - that a commandment of Hashem is moral and just, we can try to understand it. Whether or not we reach an understanding doesn't change the facts. It's moral and just. But we can discuss WHY it is moral and just, and attempt to gain some insight.

IMO, similar to to what @m65 wrote in his insightful post, the nation of Amaleik is by it's very nature an evil nation. It is in their blood, even in the women and young children. How do we know that? Can we just a child and assume he will grow to be evil? That answer is - we cannot judge, but Hashem knows everything, and He is the one who told us that the entire nation is evil. Once we know that they are inherently evil, we must destroy them completely, before they have a chance to destroy us. It may seem sad to have to kid a child, but if G-d said that this child will grow up be a terrible person, and He commands us to kill that child, it is not an immoral act in the least bit.

If you knew with certainty - because G-d told you - that a child will grow up to be Hitler, would you claim a higher morality and refrain from ridding the world of the next mass-murderer?

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2023, 07:24:23 PM »


Very shtark as usual. Now go on to explain the difference with ISIS slaughtering out infidels in the name of God.

(I have no shailos at all of course. To me there is only one proven religion and any external said word of God is deemed BS, that's why I don't believe my eyes seeing those who supposedly also believe in the Bible mock an open decree of God in the Bible as some brutal ancient nation wiping. I'm just asking how would you explain that eloquently to a Hindu for example when asked who gets to wipe out others in the name of God)

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2023, 07:32:03 PM »
Very shtark as usual. Now go on to explain the difference with ISIS slaughtering out infidels in the name of God.

(I have no shailos at all of course. To me there is only one proven religion and any external said word of God is deemed BS, that's why I don't believe my eyes seeing those who supposedly also believe in the Bible mock an open decree of God in the Bible as some brutal ancient nation wiping. I'm just asking how would you explain that eloquently to a Hindu for example when asked who get's to wipe out others in the name of God)
There is no commandment to explain this to those who don't believe. DDF is not a place to have comparative religion discussions. That being the case, I don't think anyone here really should be trying to mollify the feelings about this to someone who is not of the religion - as it likely won't happen, as you point out.

My post was NOT directed to any non-Jew on the forum. I think that there is no way for them to be fully satisfied in this discussion without first hashing out the entire religion debate - which will not happen here. I just wrote my post because I feel that there are JEWS here who feel almost apologetic or confused about this commandment. That is what I was trying to address.

And to non-Jews here - you may not understand this commandment, but that is okay with me. As I said, I don't feel any need to be ashamed to follow the word of Hashem. And although we will probably never see eye to eye on this, I have no issue discussing this in a civil way, as we have been doing for years.

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2023, 07:34:10 PM »
Let's have a recap. Post was started to bash BH antisemitic comment.
We have learned there is no proof to this except for the Russia media which he denied.
We learned it was the Jews who tried to kill off a whole race.
We learned it was the Jews where "kill every man, women, child, baby and infant" originated.
This will be looked backed on for centuries for how something can go so horribly wrong and backfire on you.  :)

We do believe that when G-d, who created is all, commands us to exterminate a race, that supercedes ethical considerations, much as an earthquake that destroys a city in Sodom like fashion or a flood isn't concerned with ethicality.

However, being as this is such a rare and extreme exception, and otherwise it is so horrifically unconscionable, that one needs an extremely high standard of proof that G-d commanded and supports both the extermination and the methodology, to the degree that G-d Himself is involved in it and there's no other way to explain the events.

If a well armed professional military were to walk into a city with machine guns and mow down all the defenseless civilians they can find, with the justification that they have a divine mandate, there would be no outside evidence supporting that G-d is condoning their actions. Even if the mandate were non-existent, the massacre would still be possible.

However, if a group of old barely armed individuals were to face an enemy militia, and instead of machine guns, they would be armed with prayer books, and their battle strategy would be to take a handful of dirt and throw it in the air and declare "G-d, we are doing our part in this war as You have commanded - now facilitate the rest", and the dirt would magically turn into poison arrows that would kill the enemy instantly, that would be legitimate evidence of the Divine commandment and intervention to have the eradication effectuated.

From the first Amaleki war, the verse takes pains to describe how the tide of battle was openly determined solely by the Jews turning to Heaven for intervention. When Moses would raise his hands and they would look away from the enemy and towards Heaven and pray, they would be victorious. When they would look away from Heaven and towards the oncoming attacking Amalekis to focus on the battle, they would be pushed back and fail. It was the effective equivalent of a basketball player missing whenever he looks at the hoop and aims and shoots, and scoring whenever he faces away from the hoop from 40 feet away, says a prayer, and tosses the ball vertically in the air. It would be so illogical that there would be no explanation by law of nature, and would be forced to be attributed to metaphysical intervention.

When going out to engage in a Divinely ordained war, the Jewish "armies" were always comprised in a fashion that completely ignored military capabilities and focused solely on the piety of the "soldiers". They would eliminate anyone who had a new wife or home they wanted to go home to, anyone with any sins, and anyone with any semblance of fear or doubt that G-d would take care of the battle for them. The war itself would look comical from a military standpoint. These barely armed sages would walk towards the enemy. If G-d was indeed supporting them, ten thousand enemy soldiers would panic and run away from one hundred of these inept soldiers and would trip and fall on their swords as they were fleeing. The "soldiers" would barely have to engage in any actual fighting - G-d would take care of it for them. However, if they were fighting for selfish or cruel purposes, and their battle wasn't Divinely ordained, then exactly the opposite scene would unfold. No matter how powerful or well armed the Jews were, and how pathetic their enemy capabilities were, the Jews would be defeated in spectacular fashion, like sheep to the slaughter. They would outnumber the enemy 500 to one and still run away in a panic and trample each other in the process. Even to the outsiders, there would be no way of explaining what happened in military terms. It would be clear that G-d was angry at the Jews and the results of what had occurred were solely from Him.


With the Nazis, or any of the other groups claiming to have a divine mandate to kill others, we saw no evidence of Divine intervention being the sole facilitator of their genocidal tactics. On the contrary, we saw well armed men with superior technology and tanks and bombs overpowering women and children and killing them. That can hardly be compelling evidence of Divinity, and wouldn't pass muster as an exception to the absolute ironclad rule we have against murder.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2023, 07:37:55 PM »
We should thank @yuneeq for another religious discussion.  :)
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Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #76 on: February 02, 2023, 07:40:37 PM »
Very shtark as usual. Now go on to explain the difference with ISIS slaughtering out infidels in the name of God.

(I have no shailos at all of course. To me there is only one proven religion and any external said word of God is deemed BS, that's why I don't believe my eyes seeing those who supposedly also believe in the Bible mock an open decree of God in the Bible as some brutal ancient nation wiping. I'm just asking how would you explain that eloquently to a Hindu for example when asked who gets to wipe out others in the name of God)

See what I wrote a couple of posts above. (It's from Rav Gershon Ribner.)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #77 on: February 02, 2023, 07:46:40 PM »


Beautiful job! You're hired!!  :)

Reminds of the story with the Maskilim in Brisk who played a skit joking how a Milchemes Mitzva would look like nowadays. Here comes the enemy's army with all their cannons and modern warfare, and against them show up the Netziv schlepping with his big siddur and Reb Shua Leib shlepping with his old Tehilim etc. When they told this over to Reb Chaim he said "They missed the main part of the story, those two have won the battle!".

Offline imayid2

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2023, 07:53:20 PM »
s in their Once we know that they are inherently evil, we must destroy them completely, before they have a chance to destroy us.
Genuinely curious if there is a source for this ”preemptive” line of reasoning being repeated here.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Death of Nazi Sympathizers and other Repugnant Individuals
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2023, 07:55:48 PM »
And to non-Jews here - you may not understand this commandment, but that is okay with me. As I said, I don't feel any need to be ashamed to follow the word of Hashem. And although we will probably never see eye to eye on this, I have no issue discussing this in a civil way, as we have been doing for years.
The only discussion to had is if one believes theirs is the one true religion and all others are fake.
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