An amazing fact that has not been addressed.

[friedmans]

I wanted to say a fact that I discovered, and I think it is amazing, as follows

We accept from the חז"ל that a month has about 29 days and 12 hours and 792 parts (And this is the average time between the appearances of the moon between the beginning of one month and the beginning of the second month) and I once checked how many parts there are in total, and since an hour contains 1080 parts (each part is 3.333 seconds) and therefore the total number is 765,433 parts and I define this number as completely symmetrical, Because the difference between him and a million is 234,567 And it does not matter at all from whom the חז"ל received this figure, whether they received it in tradition or from Babylonian astronomers

And the figure is quite accurate as you can see on NASA's website about the length of the synodic month.

https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEhelp/moonorbit.html


I consider this an amazing figure worthy of note.


(In addition, I apologize if there are mistakes in the wording in what I wrote, because my English is quite bad and I wrote the things with the help of Google Translate)

[AsherO]

765,432*

Which part is amazing? The symmetry? That they calculated this accurately? Something else?

Also, which part has not been addressed?

[friedmans]

765,432*

Which part is amazing? The symmetry? That they calculated this accurately? Something else?

Also, which part has not been addressed?

The fact that the number is accurate is well known and famous, the figure I came to say is that the length of the synodical month is supposed to be a number without any logical order, and if you get a completely symmetrical average, this is a wonderful part of the beauty of creation (Einstein defined that God does not play with dice)

[friedmans]

When I said this to someone, he told me that the figure I gave is correct, but it is based on the reality that the חז"ל used the division of the hour into 1080 parts purely for convenience, since this number is divisible by all digits except 7, and he was right, but it is this is not the only reason they used this number !

And see what is written here

ועוד פירשו, כי יש תתר"ף חלקים בשעה, וכנגדם שם בן ד' המתגלגל בצירוף נקודו באלפא ביתא תתר"ף צירופין, ואמר שתתר"ף חלקים אלו שבשעה הם תתר"ף נשימות שאדם מנשים, ועל כל נשימה ונשימה יש אות משם בן ד׳ הנותן בו חיות הנשימה ההיא (ראשית חכמה שער היראה פרק י׳)

[AsherO]

The fact that the number is accurate is well known and famous, the figure I came to say is that the length of the synodical month is supposed to be a number without any logical order, and if you get a completely symmetrical average, this is a wonderful part of the beauty of creation (Einstein defined that God does not play with dice)

Average? It’s a constant.

[SuperFlyer]

I have heard of it before, but what is amazing, and for those needing proof that Chazal had divine information, as the equipment used at the time could nowhere near have this accuracy.

[friedmans]

I have heard of it before, but what is amazing, and for those needing proof that Chazal had divine information, as the equipment used at the time could nowhere near have this accuracy.

This is not proof, because the researchers say that this figure has a Babylonian origin 1,000 years before our origins

[friedmans]

Average? It’s a constant.

If the time the moon is visible at the beginning of the month is fixed, why do witnesses need to testify that they saw the moon during the time of the Temple?

And you can also see in the link of the NASA website that I brought in the first message that the time is an average.

And I opened the issue in this forum, because I asked this in an Israeli forum and I didn't see that people would treat the data I brought as something unusual, and the American brain is known for its common sense, I thought that I might get confirmation of my conclusion here

[Ver hut gazugt]

If the time the moon is visible at the beginning of the month is fixed, why do witnesses need to testify that they saw the moon during the time of the Temple?

And you can also see in the link of the NASA website that I brought in the first message that the time is an average.

And I opened the issue in this forum, because I asked this in an Israeli forum and I didn't see that people would treat the data I brought as something unusual, and the American brain is known for its common sense, I thought that I might get confirmation of my conclusion here

gzairas hakosuv.

[sds1493]

gzairas hakosuv.

Cf. Rabbeinu Chananel

וכתב רבינו חננאל ז"ל קביעות החדשים אינו אלא על פי החשבון לא על פי ראית הלבנה והראיה שכל ארבעים שנה שהיו ישראל במדבר היה הענן מכסה אותם ביום ועמוד האש לילה ולא ראו בכלם שמש ביום ולא ירח בלילה, והוא שאמר הכתוב (נחמיה ט) ואתה ברחמיך הרבים לא עזבתם במדבר את עמוד הענן לא סר מעליהם ביומם להנחותם בהדרך ואת עמוד האש בלילה להאיר להם ומהיכן היו קובעים חדשים על פי ראית הלבנה, אלא בודאי עקר המצוה בכתוב על פי החשבון.

https://www.sefaria.org/Rabbeinu_Bahya,_Shemot_12.2.3

[yfr bachur]

Average? It’s a constant.

@AsherO
It's an average. Look it up.

Just like the exact length of the day varies depending on the seasons as the linear travel speed of the earth and moon vary depending on the distance from the sun, which varies because the orbit is an ellipse not centered on the sun.

The astronomy is too complicated for me to explain well but is explained very well (in Modern seforim on zmanim) R' David Braunfelds Dvar Yom: https://www.amazon.com/Explanation-Acharonim-Present-Day-Minhagim-Astronomical/dp/1600912508/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1676543176&refinements=p_27%3ARabbi+Dovid+Braunfeld&s=books&sr=1-1

@friedmans It may be that the average Israeli who doesn't learn much limudei chol doesn't know this. I would say that the average American has heard this at some point (and forgotten it). I've known this for about as long as I can remember. It's brought up often when Project Chazon (and others like them) gives courses in Yeshivos and Bais Ya'akov...

[friedmans]

@AsherO
It's an average. Look it up.

Just like the exact length of the day varies depending on the seasons as the linear travel speed of the earth and moon vary depending on the distance from the sun, which varies because the orbit is an ellipse not centered on the sun.

The astronomy is too complicated for me to explain well but is explained very well (in Modern seforim on zmanim) R' David Braunfelds Dvar Yom: https://www.amazon.com/Explanation-Acharonim-Present-Day-Minhagim-Astronomical/dp/1600912508/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1676543176&refinements=p_27%3ARabbi+Dovid+Braunfeld&s=books&sr=1-1

@friedmans It may be that the average Israeli who doesn't learn much limudei chol doesn't know this. I would say that the average American has heard this at some point (and forgotten it). I've known this for about as long as I can remember. It's brought up often when Project Chazon (and others like them) gives courses in Yeshivos and Bais Ya'akov...

The figure that is given everywhere is the exact time that the חז"ל brought and nowhere did I see that the 29 days and 12 hours and the 793 parts are factored into the whole number 765,433, the uniqueness of the order of which I was talking about. I will try to write it down from the side of the days, maybe you will understand my meaning better, and so the text in NASA's article about the synodical month is
 

The mean length of the synodic month is 29.53059 days (29d 12h 44m 03s)

29.53059 days is equal to 708.73416 hours, which is equal to 42,524.0496 minutes, which is equal to 2,551,442.976 seconds

And since there are 3.333 parts in each second (the hour consists 1080 of parts) if we divide the number of seconds in the month that are 2,551,442.976 by 3.3333 the result is 765432.892808

According to the calculation of the חז"ל, the month consists of 765,433 parts and I mentioned that the difference between it and a million is 234,567 and is quite symmetrical, which is an unusual figure and I don't know if it exists in synodical systems of other celestial bodies in space, in any case 99% of the people who have seen this figure until now, no See it as something special, and for that I ask, am I the only exception, or should I do what my grandfather said, if two people tell you that you are drunk, please go to sleep.

(I apologize again for my English here which is based on Google Translate)

[yfr bachur]

@friedmans try posting what you want to say in hebrew, maybe we will understand what you  see special better.

[m65]

i am more amazed that science came so close than anything else

[aygart]

Until the late 1500's the Jewish lunar calendar was the most accurate solar calendar known to man.

[skyguy918]

You're going about this backwards - I think this is what you're trying to say. We know חז"ל say that the month is 29 days and 12 hours and the 793 'parts'. Therefore, expressed in 'parts' where 1080 parts make an hour, the month is ((((29*24)+12)*1080)+793=765,433. Ie a month is 765,433 parts of an hour.

But I don't know why that number in and of itself is supposed to be so amazing, especially when you need to subtract it off a million to get it to be fully 'symmetrical' (this is not the correct term, but I don't think there is actually a term for a number whose digits are all consecutive, so I'll stick with yours).

[friedmans]

@friedmans try posting what you want to say in hebrew, maybe we will understand what you  see special better.

התכוונתי לומר שתוצאה של ממוצע שמבטא זמן מסוים, לא אמור להיות לו סדר וארגון, ואם רואים כאן סדר כלשהו זה אומר משהו, ומה ניתן להסיק מכאן, אולי צריך להיות אסטרונום בשביל לדעת.



שלחתי השנה לאחד המומחים הגדולים בישראל בענייני לוח שנה העברי את השאלה האם הסדר של המספרים מבחינה הסתברותית מוגדר כאנומלי ותשובתו היתה 2 מילים, שהם - בין השיטין

ואוסיף כאן שאלה מעניינת נוספת ששאלתי אותו והיא, מדוע כאשר מחלקים את המספר 765,433 ל2160 מקבלים אורך של 12 חודשים סינודיים (שנה יהודית) שזה 354.367129629629 ימים ותשובתו

השיטה הזריזה שמצאת היא בסך הכל  תרגיל פשוט.
הסבר:
2160 הם שעתיים ביחידות של חלקים (2*1080).
אי לכך:
24 כפול 1080 שווה 25920 שזה יממה ביחידות של חלקים
12 כפול 2160 שווה 25920 שזה שוב אותו דבר.

לכן 12 כפול חודש = 12 חודשים.
אם אתה לוקח את התוצאה בימים ומכפיל בסך החלקים ביממה אתה מקבל את התוצאה בחלקים.
מובן?

בברכה,

XXX

[SuperFlyer]

This is not proof, because the researchers say that this figure has a Babylonian origin 1,000 years before our origins

Researchers say many things.
Are those things based on clear proofs, such as texts etc ?

[friedmans]

ובנוסף למדתי קצת מוסר מהמספר 1080 שהרי יש יסוד של ר' צדוק הכהן מלובלין שמה שהכי קשה לאדם בעצם האדם מסוגל לו ביותר, והמספר 1080 הכי לא מסתדר עם הספרה  7 שהרי הוא מתחלק לכל הספרות חוץ מ7, אך עיגול שהקיפו הוא 1080 הקוטר שלו הוא 343.77 (= 7 * 7 * 7 + 0.77) 

[yfr bachur]

@AsherO
It's an average. Look it up.

Just like the exact length of the day varies depending on the seasons as the linear travel speed of the earth and moon vary depending on the distance from the sun, which varies because the orbit is an ellipse not centered on the sun.

The astronomy is too complicated for me to explain well but is explained very well (in Modern seforim on zmanim) R' David Braunfelds Dvar Yom: https://www.amazon.com/Explanation-Acharonim-Present-Day-Minhagim-Astronomical/dp/1600912508/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1676543176&refinements=p_27%3ARabbi+Dovid+Braunfeld&s=books&sr=1-1

@friedmans It may be that the average Israeli who doesn't learn much limudei chol doesn't know this. I would say that the average American has heard this at some point (and forgotten it). I've known this for about as long as I can remember. It's brought up often when Project Chazon (and others like them) gives courses in Yeshivos and Bais Ya'akov...

I looked it up over shabbos. R' Braunfield explains the causes for variation in the lenght of the day. For the length of the month of the month see R' Mordechai Kuber's Crossing the Dateline https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Dateline-Rabbi-Mordechai-Kuber/dp/1946351989 chapters 69 and 70.