Author Topic: Minyan during el al flights?  (Read 1319 times)

Offline gso123

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Minyan during el al flights?
« on: August 10, 2023, 12:57:50 AM »
I flew from tlv to lax last week and was disappointed there was no shacharit on the place. Got in at 6am ish so maybe it was too early. Noticed at one point the sun came out so i thought I needed to daven before I could eat, but then the sun went back down and disappeared so I wasn't sure. Anyone ask a rabbi about that?

On the way back from lax are there usually minyans? Would they be in economy? I'm in premium so will I have to keep checking or do they announce it? (I don't fly much)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2023, 01:41:29 AM »
I flew from tlv to lax last week and was disappointed there was no shacharit on the place. Got in at 6am ish so maybe it was too early. Noticed at one point the sun came out so i thought I needed to daven before I could eat, but then the sun went back down and disappeared so I wasn't sure. Anyone ask a rabbi about that?

On the way back from lax are there usually minyans? Would they be in economy? I'm in premium so will I have to keep checking or do they announce it? (I don't fly much)
There is a website to check on Zmanim for your specific flight, I think it’s called myZmanim.

Minyanim on planes are too often a nuisance to other passengers. Consider staying in your seat and davening quietly.

Offline Euclid

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2023, 01:42:33 AM »
I believe ElAl now includes zmanim on the IFE screen

Offline jew

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2023, 02:22:02 AM »
I don't think the lax flight usually has too many frum males...

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2023, 03:35:51 AM »
Noticed at one point the sun came out so i thought I needed to daven before I could eat, but then the sun went back down and disappeared so I wasn't sure. Anyone ask a rabbi about that?

There are flights that go over the arctic circle and you have issues about that sort of thing (sun rising and then setting). Even MyZmanim has issues giving people zmanim for those flights. Maybe thats why there was no minyan...

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2023, 03:36:31 AM »
I believe ElAl now includes zmanim on the IFE screen
I heard from our rav that they are not so reliable. Better go with myzmanim.

Offline mileagejunkie

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2023, 03:51:42 AM »
I flew from tlv to lax last week and was disappointed there was no shacharit on the place. Got in at 6am ish so maybe it was too early. Noticed at one point the sun came out so i thought I needed to daven before I could eat, but then the sun went back down and disappeared so I wasn't sure. Anyone ask a rabbi about that?

On the way back from lax are there usually minyans? Would they be in economy? I'm in premium so will I have to keep checking or do they announce it? (I don't fly much)

Misheyakir was around 5am in LA last week, and netz close to 6. Being in the air changes things by a few minutes but nothing big. The latest arrival time for that flight last week was 5:42am. You could not have davened properly before the seat belt signed turned on, unless you put on tefilin at 5 at yishtabach. That being said it isn't practical to daven on a plane when flight attendants prepare for descent and people have the option to daven in a shul still within the zman, especially on a Monday or Thursday. Minyanim on planes usually happen when the zman starts and ends within the flight.
The return flight is a whole other story since you'll be on the flight for all 3 prayers. Maybe some people will try making a minyan, I have never been in that situation on an ElAl flight. Perhaps others have experience.

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2023, 04:01:32 AM »
Misheyakir was around 5am in LA last week, and netz close to 6. Being in the air changes things by a few minutes but nothing big. The latest arrival time for that flight last week was 5:42am. You could not have davened properly before the seat belt signed turned on, unless you put on tefilin at 5 at yishtabach. That being said it isn't practical to daven on a plane when flight attendants prepare for descent and people have the option to daven in a shul still within the zman, especially on a Monday or Thursday. Minyanim on planes usually happen when the zman starts and ends within the flight.
The return flight is a whole other story since you'll be on the flight for all 3 prayers. Maybe some people will try making a minyan, I have never been in that situation on an ElAl flight. Perhaps others have experience.
SFO-TLV had more than one for mincha but no coordinated Shacharis.
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Offline Euclid

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Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2023, 08:04:54 AM »
I heard from our rav that they are not so reliable. Better go with myzmanim.
I don't believe that this is universally accepted.

ElAl's system uses KosherJava which is the gold standard for computer generated zmanim (most Jewish apps use it or one of its ports). It's open source (https://kosherjava.com/) meaning anyone can look at the code that creates the zmanim. As opposed to MyZmanim which is closed source and no one knows how they generate their zmanim.

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2023, 08:36:32 AM »
I don't believe that this is universally accepted.

ElAl's system uses KosherJava which is the gold standard for computer generated zmanim (most Jewish apps use it or one of its ports). It's open source (https://kosherjava.com/) meaning anyone can look at the code that creates the zmanim. As opposed to MyZmanim which is closed source and no one knows how they generate their zmanim.
Myzmanim has haskomos from leading rabbanim, especially those who are knowledgeable in zmanim. Does KosherJava have that? Zmanim are complicated things...

Offline Zali

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2023, 08:29:19 PM »
KosherJava Powers Zmanim on El Al Flights


In an earlier Inflight Zmanim Calculations – Why So Complex? post, I outlined the complexity of calculating zmanim for flights. Back in Aug 2022, Dan’s Deals posted the exciting news that Zmanim were added to El Al’s flight entertainment system. This had not been formally announced by El Al at the time since the app was really in an (unannounced) alpha/beta testing phase. A careful examination of the screenshots by members of the #zmanim channel in the Frum Software Developers Slack, showed that it was powered by the KosherJava zmanim library. It should not have been surprising that it was found and used without my knowledge, since it is a free, well documented and easy to use open source library. After a number of issues with the zmanim app were reported to me (I want to thank all of those who took the time to track me down to report the issues), Rabbi Dovid Heber reached out to El Al, and Tal Kalderon, the head of El Al’s Inflight entertainment & Connectivity team reached out to me for assistance. This lead to meetings with Boris Veksler the CEO of FlightPath3D who integrated the KosherJava zmanim code into their flight maps as an optional module that El Al is using.

Boris made it a personal mission to perfect the product and a series of fixes were deployed until the final release of the Prayer Room / Mesivta Derakia app was deployed on El Al aircraft on 5 Feb, 2023. At this point, the app started displaying accurate zmanim. Boris and the FlightPath3D team put a lot of effort into perfecting it into an easy-to-use app. To ease understanding of zmanim on flights that cross time zones, the app shows countdown times to the upcoming zmanim.

The El Al Zmanim app showing the default current aircraft location zmanim
For example, El Al flight LY 26 from New York to Israel departing at 9pm will show a countdown to chatzos/midnight, alos hashachar (two variants) and later zmanim (such as misheyakir, sunrise, etc.), displaying a countdown, with the number of hours and minutes to upcoming zmanim. Zmanim are calculated based on the plane’s current location, speed and the flight path. Since headwinds and tailwinds (as well as in-flight route changes) can significantly change the time that zmanim will be reached, the times to the upcoming zmanim are recalculated multiple times a minute. This significantly reduces the challenge to passengers, since precalculated zmanim do not come close to real time calculations on the flight. The app also shows a compass with the bearing to Yerushalayim / Jerusalem (map). The FAQ that is part of the zmanim app on the aircraft appears in a hyperlinked version at El Al In-Flight Zmanim FAQ on this site. The app defaults to the Aircraft location but can be changed to show zmanim for multiple international cities displayed in the time and time zone of those cities. The app works in both English and Hebrew, based on the language selected in the flight entertainment system. A thank you goes to R’ Chaim Keller of the indispensable Chai Tables project for allowing the development team access his flight path algorithms. The FAQ would not have been possible without help of translators and copy-editors.
The El Al Zmanim app in Hebrew
 A special thanks to Effie Freiner from Lakewood for the Hebrew translation (the “Yeshivish” Hebrew posed its own set of challenges), and to my wife and Dovid Nachfolger for clarifying the language and grammar in the English FAQ.
I spent time with Rabbi Dovid Heber, Rabbi Dovid Braunfeld, Rabbi Yisroel Harfenes and Reb Solly Tropper reviewing the various complexities of calculating in-flight zmanim before the app left the βeta stage and went live.

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2023, 04:28:12 AM »
It would be great if a few people flying el-al could use myzmanim and chai tables along with the el al inflight zmanim and see if they are all similar. please post.

Offline lover of truth

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2023, 06:26:27 AM »
am a steady on tlv-lax there is never shachris however slichos was arranged during aseres yemei
lax-tlv has all three minyanim usually minyan metzumzam

Offline smurf

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2024, 12:02:54 AM »
Is it typical for a minyan to happen TLV-EWR?

My flight LY25 TLV-EWR 12:05am for the end of Feb was just rescheduled for 5:55am.
I was really trying to avoid having to daven on the plane but this new timing means the flight will consume the entire zman of shacharis.

I will be traveling bezh  with a new bar mitzvah bochur and don't won't to get off to a bad start with minyan for him.

Offline be happy

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2024, 12:46:08 AM »
Should be atleast 2 minyonim let us know, elal should let u reschedule on the jfk for even exchange

Offline thaber

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2024, 01:46:13 AM »
to add - OP's seeing of light is not considered daylight, tlv-lax goes north enough that what you're seeing is night in the places that are light at night). On a good day, espescially with GE, you can make a normal 7:30 shachris, and would be silly to daven on plane.
LAX-TLV  - mincha often happens at the gate for the 2pm flights. Maariv could happen, shachris is about midnight la time on the 2 pm flight, and your window to daven at the right zman is small. IME, making the trip several times a year, very few people are awake to daven, and the minyanim are invariably after the zman. I personally try to hit netz, (which is easier now with the IFE) and alone.

Offline smurf

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Re: Minyan during el al flights?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2024, 10:08:22 AM »
Should be atleast 2 minyonim let us know, elal should let u reschedule on the jfk for even exchange
Really, without having to pay the fare diff?
Not that it would help though, i am not seeing 4 seats available on other flights that night
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 10:14:20 AM by smurf »