Poll

Does gender affirming care breach the doctrine of do no harm?

Yes
31 (88.6%)
No
2 (5.7%)
Other - explain in thread
2 (5.7%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?  (Read 22157 times)

Offline Welder

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 1194
  • Total likes: 69
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #220 on: April 01, 2023, 11:47:04 PM »
Do you follow any sports?
Admittedly, no. But it seems logical that categories should be based on ability.
"We need more welders and less philosophers" — Marco Rubio

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 16618
  • Total likes: 7474
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #221 on: April 01, 2023, 11:51:40 PM »
Admittedly, no. But it seems logical that categories should be based on ability.
In 95%+ of sports it is not.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 3163
  • Total likes: 3586
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #222 on: April 01, 2023, 11:55:30 PM »
Admittedly, no. But it seems logical that categories should be based on ability.

I'm with you on that. If the whole purpose of sports is to determine who's muscle composition and agility is superior, lets just test that medically before and have all the watchers go back to work.  :)

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 5214
  • Total likes: 14893
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #223 on: April 02, 2023, 12:03:57 AM »
Admittedly, no. But it seems logical that categories should be based on ability.

Wait, you just changed your position. Ability or body size and muscle makeup?



These guys both won baseball's Most Valuable Player award in the past 5 years. Should they not be in the same league?

Offline Welder

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 1194
  • Total likes: 69
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #224 on: April 02, 2023, 12:23:51 AM »
Wait, you just changed your position. Ability or body size and muscle makeup?
I said all along "...metrics and ability: weight, height, muscle composition, etc. depending on the sport"

These guys both won baseball's Most Valuable Player award in the past 5 years. Should they not be in the same league?

Should they be in the same league for wrestling?


Point was that if there's gonna be competition categories, I would think there's better metrics than gender and sex.
"We need more welders and less philosophers" — Marco Rubio

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18423
  • Total likes: 14594
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #225 on: April 02, 2023, 12:27:26 AM »
I said all along "...metrics and ability: weight, height, muscle composition, etc. depending on the sport"

Should they be in the same league for wrestling?


Point was that if there's gonna be competition categories, I would think there's better metrics than gender and sex.
There are many physical attributes dependent on biological gender.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 5214
  • Total likes: 14893
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #226 on: April 02, 2023, 09:14:24 AM »
I said all along "...metrics and ability: weight, height, muscle composition, etc. depending on the sport"

Should they be in the same league for wrestling?


Point was that if there's gonna be competition categories, I would think there's better metrics than gender and sex.

The whole point of sports is to measure who has the better ability.

You think that height is a better differentiator than testosterone levels?

Wrestling already has loads more categories, as does boxing, etc. The various sports already had perfectly good ways of separating competitors, with only extremely rare instances of confusion (see Caster Semenya).

Guess what, if we did it your way, the categories would be split by.... biological gender. Serena Williams was probably the best tennis player in history. She would never, at any point in her career, beat any of the top 200 men, no matter of she was physically bigger and stronger than them.

Simone Biles might be the best at her sport than *anyone* is at their sport. Whenever she does something new, it's "the first time it's been done in *women's* competition.

And on and on.

Which is why it was so obvious that you don't follow sports.
 
So because now people can subvert those various categories by merely identifying as something else, we throw those differentiators out? And even in the cases where people do take hormone treatment and undergo physical surgical changes, when the science shows they still don't match the levels of biological men and women without treatments, again, we just throw out the differentiators?

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7549
  • Total likes: 3975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #227 on: April 02, 2023, 03:11:26 PM »
The whole point of sports is to measure who has the better ability.

You think that height is a better differentiator than testosterone levels?

Wrestling already has loads more categories, as does boxing, etc. The various sports already had perfectly good ways of separating competitors, with only extremely rare instances of confusion (see Caster Semenya).

Guess what, if we did it your way, the categories would be split by.... biological gender. Serena Williams was probably the best tennis player in history. She would never, at any point in her career, beat any of the top 200 men, no matter of she was physically bigger and stronger than them.

Simone Biles might be the best at her sport than *anyone* is at their sport. Whenever she does something new, it's "the first time it's been done in *women's* competition.

And on and on.

Which is why it was so obvious that you don't follow sports.
 
So because now people can subvert those various categories by merely identifying as something else, we throw those differentiators out? And even in the cases where people do take hormone treatment and undergo physical surgical changes, when the science shows they still don't match the levels of biological men and women without treatments, again, we just throw out the differentiators?
Sports is one frontier that highlights the ludicrousness of some of the trans movement’s aims. It’s also one that will likely be won sooner or later.

IOW This argument isn’t necessarily reflective of all pro/anti trans arguments. It is and always was fatally flawed. The mere fact that “women’s sports” is off-limits to men but “men’s sports” accepts all competitors including women (they just aren’t good enough) illustrates the absurdity of the trans argument.

This weightlifter wants to compete, but not at the open forum that accepts all takers, rather at the specially designated *handicapped* forum for people who don’t possess enough natural testosterone. It is and always was divided conclusively by birth sex.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Welder

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 1194
  • Total likes: 69
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #228 on: April 02, 2023, 06:27:57 PM »
Good points. Biological sex does seem like a valid way to  differentiate, generally speaking.

Regarding gender identity, I have said from the beginning that I do not fully understand the argument (in favor). I understand that from a mental health perspective, trans individuals have an essential need for their gender identity to be recognized, but I don't understand how it fits in with competing based on athletic ability.
"We need more welders and less philosophers" — Marco Rubio

Offline neveryou

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2019
  • Posts: 599
  • Total likes: 262
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #229 on: April 02, 2023, 09:48:14 PM »


I understand that from a mental health perspective, trans individuals have an essential need for their gender identity to be recognized,

From a mental health perspective, get them help. Don't recognize their craziness, that just makes there mental illness worse

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18423
  • Total likes: 14594
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #230 on: April 02, 2023, 09:50:21 PM »
Good points. Biological sex does seem like a valid way to  differentiate, generally speaking.

Regarding gender identity, I have said from the beginning that I do not fully understand the argument (in favor). I understand that from a mental health perspective, trans individuals have an essential need for their gender identity to be recognized, but I don't understand how it fits in with competing based on athletic ability.
It doesn't fit in. Biology is what it is.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7549
  • Total likes: 3975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #231 on: April 02, 2023, 10:03:15 PM »
Don't recognize their craziness, that just makes there mental illness worse
Source? What if that’s beneficial for them?

Compelling you to act in a way that helps them is a different argument.
It doesn't fit in. Biology is what it is.
True, but if one is arguing that affirmation is mentally helpful for them then having them compete in a league as a gender they don’t identify with may be harmful.

Again, you still need to consider the externalities affecting everyone else.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 5214
  • Total likes: 14893
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #232 on: April 02, 2023, 11:58:56 PM »
Source?

Been Shapiro and Matt Walsh

Offline neveryou

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2019
  • Posts: 599
  • Total likes: 262
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #233 on: April 03, 2023, 10:47:13 AM »
Source? What if that’s beneficial for them?

Compelling you to act in a way that helps them is a different argument.True, but if one is arguing that affirmation is mentally helpful for them then having them compete in a league as a gender they don’t identify with may be harmful.

Again, you still need to consider the externalities affecting everyone else.
So let's not get them the help they need for their mental illness,
Usually when sick people don't get help, their sickness gets worse not better

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1715
  • Total likes: 1685
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #234 on: April 03, 2023, 12:21:08 PM »
Source?

This is true for every other mental illnesses. The burden of proof is on those attempting to claim that this one is different.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7549
  • Total likes: 3975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #235 on: April 03, 2023, 11:17:07 PM »
This is true for every other mental illnesses. The burden of proof is on those attempting to claim that this one is different.
Assuming it is a mental illness, is that really true? How do doctors recommend dealing with someone suffering from schizophrenia?

According to bccs.org:

“Do not reason, argue, or challenge the delusion. Attempting to disprove the delusion is not helpful and will create mistrust.
Assure the person that they are safe and no harm will come.
Do not leave the person alone – use openness and honesty at all times.
Encourage the person to verbalize feelings of anxiety, fear, and insecurity – offer concern and protection to prevent injury to themselves or others.
Convey acceptance of the need for the false belief.
Focus on building a trusting relationship with the person, rather than the need to control their symptoms – remain calm.”

https://www.bcss.org/support/how-do-i-get-help-for-my-loved-one/steps-working-delusions/


So again, what is your source? Please demonstrate a case of what you define as mental illness where “recognizing their craziness” is acknowledged as harmful. (For schizophrenia, you don’t have to buy into the delusion but it’s helpful for them to believe you are).
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1715
  • Total likes: 1685
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #236 on: April 04, 2023, 12:10:05 AM »
Assuming it is a mental illness, is that really true? How do doctors recommend dealing with someone suffering from schizophrenia?

According to bccs.org:

“Do not reason, argue, or challenge the delusion. Attempting to disprove the delusion is not helpful and will create mistrust.
Assure the person that they are safe and no harm will come.
Do not leave the person alone – use openness and honesty at all times.
Encourage the person to verbalize feelings of anxiety, fear, and insecurity – offer concern and protection to prevent injury to themselves or others.
Convey acceptance of the need for the false belief.
Focus on building a trusting relationship with the person, rather than the need to control their symptoms – remain calm.”

https://www.bcss.org/support/how-do-i-get-help-for-my-loved-one/steps-working-delusions/


So again, what is your source? Please demonstrate a case of what you define as mental illness where “recognizing their craziness” is acknowledged as harmful. (For schizophrenia, you don’t have to buy into the delusion but it’s helpful for them to believe you are).

The goal of treatment for schizophrenia is to move them away from their delusions. The question is just what the best way to do so is.

The link you provided says not to argue, but it also says not to agree with their delusional thoughts. The reason you don't argue is because it is counter-productive and is not the right way to free them from their delusions.

If a man walks into his therapist's office saying that he is a woman, it is obviously not helpful for the therapist to tell him straight out, "no you are not" and argue with him. However, the goal of the interaction is to understand why they feel that way so that they can come to terms with reality.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7549
  • Total likes: 3975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #237 on: April 04, 2023, 07:53:41 AM »
The goal of treatment for schizophrenia is to move them away from their delusions. The question is just what the best way to do so is.

The link you provided says not to argue, but it also says not to agree with their delusional thoughts. The reason you don't argue is because it is counter-productive and is not the right way to free them from their delusions.

If a man walks into his therapist's office saying that he is a woman, it is obviously not helpful for the therapist to tell him straight out, "no you are not" and argue with him. However, the goal of the interaction is to understand why they feel that way so that they can come to terms with reality.
I’m not sure you’re right. The link says schizophrenia is a lifelong illness with no cure, it’s possible gender dysphoria is lifelong as well. I don’t know if the goal of the interactions are anything more than helping them cope as best they can despite the impediment.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Welder

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 1194
  • Total likes: 69
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #238 on: April 05, 2023, 01:48:05 AM »
I think there is a big difference between schizophrenia and other mental illnesses compared to gender dysphoria. Gender (unlike biological sex) is an expression of one's feelings, style, and demeanor, similar to personality

A person's personality is just their personality. It doesn't have to conform to other people's expectations.

This is an oversimplification, but essentially I don't see gender dysphoria as an issue of delusion but one of identity and self-expression.
"We need more welders and less philosophers" — Marco Rubio

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18423
  • Total likes: 14594
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #239 on: April 05, 2023, 07:49:29 AM »
I think there is a big difference between schizophrenia and other mental illnesses compared to gender dysphoria. Gender (unlike biological sex) is an expression of one's feelings, style, and demeanor, similar to personality

A person's personality is just their personality. It doesn't have to conform to other people's expectations.

This is an oversimplification, but essentially I don't see gender dysphoria as an issue of delusion but one of identity and self-expression.
You are not describing dysphoria which is feeling like a boy stuck  in a girls body
Feelings don't care about your facts