Poll

Does gender affirming care breach the doctrine of do no harm?

Yes
31 (88.6%)
No
2 (5.7%)
Other - explain in thread
2 (5.7%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?  (Read 22048 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2023, 09:28:19 AM »
does gender affirming care breach the doctrine of do no harm?
A big no from the AMA!!!

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-reinforces-opposition-restrictions-transgender-medical-care
 “Gender-affirming care is medically-necessary, evidence-based care that improves the physical and mental health of transgender and gender-diverse people.”

ETA: The same for American Academy of Pediatrics, Association of American Medical Colleges, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and the American Academy of Family Physicians.

Cue the idiotic response of "covid".  ::)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 09:35:42 AM by CountValentine »
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2023, 10:16:05 AM »
They're doing themselves a massive disservice by including anything and everything under the rubric of "GAC". You don't want to bring up covid in regards to trust of the medical establishment, but in the covid threads you urge the use of common sense. I believe it is common sense that you do not, under any circumstances, do irreversible life changing elective surgeries on minors, especially for a condition that has such a strong contagion effect, and is mental in nature.


Offline Sam 77

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2023, 10:45:36 AM »
We should get Matt Walsh on this thread

Offline yeshivabucher

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2023, 10:52:55 AM »
New question what is gender affirming care
We should get Matt Walsh on this thread

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2023, 11:00:10 AM »
Many European countries were ahead of the US in adopting these forms of treatment. They are now backtracking and acknowledging that there is not good evidence that it helps. It would be wise of us to learn from their mistakes rather than repeating them.

Here is one review article from the British Medical Journal which show that the rush to support transition in children is not based on good evidence that it is helpful  --www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 11:08:44 AM by zh cohen »

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2023, 11:09:18 AM »
Cue the idiotic response of "covid".  ::)
That didn't take long.  :)
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2023, 11:19:44 AM »
That didn't take long.  :)

Are you referring to my comment? There is no other mention of Covid, and my mention of it was only *DDF covid threads* for YOUR desire to use common sense in medical discussions, nothing to do with covid

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2023, 11:20:51 AM »
So far, the poll is 4-0 yes but not one post to back it up.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2023, 11:31:19 AM »
Are you referring to my comment? There is no other mention of Covid, and my mention of it was only *DDF covid threads* for YOUR desire to use common sense in medical discussions, nothing to do with covid
To mention covid even in your context is a distraction.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2023, 11:34:00 AM »
To mention covid even in your context is a distraction.

I was recalling your desire for common sense. If that is distracting, I don't know what to tell you.

Here is the same post without the word covid:

They're doing themselves a massive disservice by including anything and everything under the rubric of "GAC". Elsewhere you've urged the use of common sense in medical discussions. I believe it is common sense that you do not, under any circumstances, do irreversible life changing elective surgeries on minors, especially for a condition that has such a strong contagion effect, and is mental in nature.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #90 on: February 28, 2023, 11:39:19 AM »
Here is the same post without the word covid:

They're doing themselves a massive disservice by including anything and everything under the rubric of "GAC". Elsewhere you've urged the use of common sense in medical discussions. I believe it is common sense that you do not, under any circumstances, do irreversible life changing elective surgeries on minors, especially for a condition that has such a strong contagion effect, and is mental in nature.
Great post.
Here is how I use common sense when I know nothing about the subject. I ask questions and research the subject. I don't let hot button words distract me. Research so far has shown me the overwhelming answer to the current question is NO.

ETA: The current question is: Does gender affirming care breach the doctrine of do no harm?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 11:49:41 AM by CountValentine »
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Offline biobook

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #91 on: February 28, 2023, 11:41:45 AM »
They're doing themselves a massive disservice by including anything and everything under the rubric of "GAC".
I think the various treatments, including both counseling and surgery, were included under one rubric to simplify discussion of that particular area of medicine and those patients.  Just like "gynecological care" includes treatments of fertility and certain cancers.

The issue CV raised in the earlier thread was that state laws are being passed that make "GAC" illegal without considering that some of the treatments that are barred are not as controversial as surgery. So I think all would agree with you that the politicians are doing themselves a massive disservice by using the term "GAC".

Offline Sam 77

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2023, 11:59:14 AM »
Watch "What Is A Woman" by Matt Walsh it will answer most of your questions

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2023, 12:07:37 PM »
Great post.
Here is how I use common sense when I know nothing about the subject. I ask questions and research the subject. I don't let hot button words distract me. Research so far has shown me the overwhelming answer to the current question is NO.

So the reading I've done, and I wouldn't call it research, is that when people have questioned the GAC narrative, they have been answered with name-calling and delegitimization rather than actual answers to the questions. I look for people who are not politically motivated and ignore people like Matt Walsh who was mentioned above, a pundit devoid of empathy who is the exact same as the most extreme trans activists just on the other side of the coin. (Even if he is correct as a broken clock)

In addition to the British policy changes mentioned above by @zh cohen, Finland and Sweden have also reversed course. They have a much more extensive dataset, as they've been doing it for longer. They're also not going to be colored in any way by "right wing transphobia".

Regarding the medical associations that have come out in favor of GAC, I've become increasingly skeptical. Without mentioning covid, the AAP and others has come out in favor of 12 year olds getting treated with ozempic, a lifelong diabetes drug which has not been tested for long-term effects, it is so gobsmackingly stupid, I didn't actually believe it was true when I heard it. They also suggest bariatric surgeries for kids who are just about to go through puberty and most significant body (size) changes. It's astounding.

And on this topic itself, institutions like the Boston Children's Hospital put out materials detailing the kinds of surgeries and irreversible treatments they do as part of GAC, and then the uproar, claimed they don't do those treatments.

Then there is the pushing of narratives like the low regret rate, when one of the major studies used to prove this says this:
https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1629012336823656449




Offline CountValentine

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2023, 12:21:24 PM »
And on this topic itself, institutions like the Boston Children's Hospital put out materials detailing the kinds of surgeries and irreversible treatments they do as part of GAC, and then the uproar, claimed they don't do those treatments.
Do you have a link? What I found is they only do surgeries on individuals of 18 and older.
As far as I can tell on the current question, they are also a NO!!! Do you see it differently?
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Offline savvydigz

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2023, 12:40:37 PM »
Asking a child which gender they would like to be, and providing solutions, is akin to asking a child if they agree they should've Been born and providing solutions....
Those that don't Believe are so warped it's hard to believe.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2023, 12:42:53 PM »
Do you have a link? What I found is they only do surgeries on individuals of 18 and older.

They provide mastectomies to 15 year olds. They changed the age on their website from 17 to 18 for some treatments after the Libs of TikTok controversy. The (now deleted) video that sparked the controversy didn't specify an age, but spoke of "young women".

Do you have a link? What I found is they only do surgeries on individuals of 18 and older.
As far as I can tell on the current question, they are also a NO!!! Do you see it differently?

Again, it depends on what GAC means. All these organizations that use the phrase without getting specific about what it means are proving that it is a political decision rather than a medical one. For example, you're saying here that they only do surgeries on adults, not minors, but they are a NO!!!! on GAC hurting children. So why not do the surgeries as well? OR are they NO!!! on some treatments, and YES!!! on others?

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2023, 12:55:52 PM »
They provide mastectomies to 15 year olds. They changed the age on their website from 17 to 18 for some treatments after the Libs of TikTok controversy. The (now deleted) video that sparked the controversy didn't specify an age, but spoke of "young women".

Again, it depends on what GAC means. All these organizations that use the phrase without getting specific about what it means are proving that it is a political decision rather than a medical one. For example, you're saying here that they only do surgeries on adults, not minors, but they are a NO!!!! on GAC hurting children. So why not do the surgeries as well? OR are they NO!!! on some treatments, and YES!!! on others?
Sorry, I was not completely accurate. 18 is for: All genital surgeries are only performed on patients age 18 and older.
https://www.childrenshospital.org/programs/center-gender-surgery-program

They approve of GAC. They have age restrictions for certain treatments. The answer to the current question is still NO!!!
Please keep providing other respected institutions/organizations. We can all see how they answer the question.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2023, 12:57:50 PM »
We are now at 6-0 but nothing to support it.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #99 on: February 28, 2023, 01:10:26 PM »
Sorry, I was not completely accurate. 18 is for: All genital surgeries are only performed on patients age 18 and older.

They approve of GAC. They have age restrictions for certain treatments. The answer to the current question is still NO!!!


If they are a no, why the age restriction? Either you're not including all treatments in "GAC", or you are not entirely a yes or no. Hence my point above:
All these organizations that use the phrase without getting specific about what it means are proving that it is a political decision rather than a medical one.

For the billionth time, you can't have a discussion about if GAC is harmful or helpful without a clear definition of what it is.

We are now at 6-0 but nothing to support it.
Here is one review article from the British Medical Journal which show that the rush to support transition in children is not based on good evidence that it is helpful  --www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382