Poll

Does gender affirming care breach the doctrine of do no harm?

Yes
31 (88.6%)
No
2 (5.7%)
Other - explain in thread
2 (5.7%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?  (Read 22067 times)

Online CountValentine

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #120 on: February 28, 2023, 02:24:24 PM »
Evidence for this "evidence- based" position of all these associations. With these conditions:
If it's evidence based, let's see side-by-side evidence comparing the way we treated this condition for 30 years with the way some changed in the last 5-10. Because just saying it helps on its own isn't a reason to change from the proven, standard methods we've always used. I mean, if you could solve these poor peoples issues without them possibly winding up with major side effects from hormones, sterilized, and missing body parts, shouldn't we do that?
All I did was ask a simple question based on your knowledge. Do you know of any?
Do you know of any major organization that says a doctor is violating their oath to do no harm by offering GAC?
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Offline neveryou

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #121 on: February 28, 2023, 02:27:24 PM »
There is a reason they don't want us to call it mutilating and castration because then people actually understand what these evil people are doing.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #122 on: February 28, 2023, 02:28:37 PM »
I have answered it many times but you refuse to accept it.

Absolutely not. You have posted definitions that include EVERYTHING from social affirmation to irreversible surgeries. You have further posted about ALL the associations and hospitals who approve and provide "GAC", while AT THE SAME TIME, noting that many of those providers DO NOT provide some of those treatments to children.

So AGAIN, which is it? Does "GAC" include surgeries, and do most hospitals NOT provide GAC, or does it NOT include surgeries?

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #123 on: February 28, 2023, 02:29:03 PM »
There is a reason they don't want us to call it mutilating and castration because then people actually understand what these evil people are doing.
Here we go again. We have moved past mutilating newborns.  ::)
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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #124 on: February 28, 2023, 02:31:04 PM »
Absolutely not. You have posted definitions that include EVERYTHING from social affirmation to irreversible surgeries. You have further posted about ALL the associations and hospitals who approve and provide "GAC", while AT THE SAME TIME, noting that many of those providers DO NOT provide some of those treatments to children.

So AGAIN, which is it? Does "GAC" include surgeries, and do most hospitals NOT provide GAC, or does it NOT include surgeries?
If you don't understand this then there is no way I can change that.
It is a multidisciplinary approach. It can be but limited to social affirmation, puberty blockers, hormone therapy and gender-affirming surgeries. Just within those 4 categories there are sub-categories.
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Offline bochur22

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #125 on: February 28, 2023, 02:31:23 PM »
All I did was ask a simple question based on your knowledge. Do you know of any?
Any such studies? NO. And I've looked a bit. Hence me coming to the conclusion that if the evidence this is necessary isn't there at face value and no one can provide it, then maybe this looks less like evidence based and medically necessary, and more barbaric mutilation.

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #126 on: February 28, 2023, 02:33:48 PM »
Any such studies? NO. And I've looked a bit. Hence me coming to the conclusion that if the evidence this is necessary isn't there at face value and no one can provide it, then maybe this looks less like evidence based and medically necessary, and more barbaric mutilation.
Not just studies. Any major organization "saying" doctors are violating their oath to do no harm by offering GAC?
We are now at 9-0 for the current question and still ZERO supporting info.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #127 on: February 28, 2023, 02:36:41 PM »
You can't be Mr. Goalposts if you refuse to setup the goalposts in the first place.

If you don't understand this then there is no way I can change that.

In this definition you include surgeries. The Boston Children's Hospital, for instance, DOES NOT provide surgeries to children. So the Boston Children's Hospital DOES NOT provide GAC according to your definition, correct?

Answer the question, it is an EXTREMELY simple one.

Offline bochur22

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #128 on: February 28, 2023, 02:38:15 PM »
Not just studies. Any major organization "saying" doctors are violating their oath to do no harm by offering GAC?
AHHHH. Sorry. I was asking you for the side-by-side comparison studies all these orgs are using to prove that affirming care is "Evidence based and medically necessary." Cause for now I still haven't seen anything showing me "Affirming" approaches have demonstrably better outcomes in any way than the method we'd been treating this with for the past 30 years. Oh, and I poked around a drop looking.

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #129 on: February 28, 2023, 02:41:35 PM »
You can't be Mr. Goalposts if you refuse to setup the goalposts in the first place.

In this definition you include surgeries. The Boston Children's Hospital, for instance, DOES NOT provide surgeries to children. So the Boston Children's Hospital DOES NOT provide GAC according to your definition, correct?

Answer the question, it is an EXTREMELY simple one.
Except you are wrong. They do provide surgeries to children as your link showed. When their own website says they provide GAC to claim the opposite is just more crazy talk.

GAC is an all-encompassing term. I am not the one that came up with it.
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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #130 on: February 28, 2023, 02:43:23 PM »
AHHHH. Sorry. I was asking you for the side-by-side comparison studies all these orgs are using to prove that affirming care is "Evidence based and medically necessary." Cause for now I still haven't seen anything showing me "Affirming" approaches have demonstrably better outcomes in any way than the method we'd been treating this with for the past 30 years. Oh, and I poked around a drop looking.
That would take a lot of time researching and fact checking your claims.

Can I get answer to my question?  :)
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #131 on: February 28, 2023, 02:43:57 PM »
Except you are wrong. They do provide surgeries to children as your link showed. When they their own website says they provide GAC to claim the opposite is just more crazy talk.

GAC is an all-encompassing term. I am not the one that came up with it.

Oh my goodness, this is beyond disingenuous.

Let's try again.

In this definition you include surgeries. The Boston Children's Hospital, for instance, DOES NOT provide most surgeries to children, and NO surgeries to children under 15. So the Boston Children's Hospital DOES NOT provide GAC according to your definition, correct?

Please answer the question, it is an EXTREMELY simple one.

Offline neveryou

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #132 on: February 28, 2023, 02:44:50 PM »
Here we go again. We have moved past mutilating newborns.  ::)
We have not moved past mutilating and castrating children and teenagers. That is what this thread is discussing.

You don't want to answer it. If you answer you are for it,  that's evil. If you answer that you aren't for it, that goes against your way of thinking. You in a predicament.

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #133 on: February 28, 2023, 02:45:21 PM »
Oh my goodness, this is beyond disingenuous.
Now we agree.
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Offline bochur22

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #134 on: February 28, 2023, 02:46:32 PM »
Not just studies. Any major organization "saying" doctors are violating their oath to do no harm by offering GAC?
We are now at 9-0 for the current question and still ZERO supporting info.
See, if these things aren't medically necessary, many of these treatments violate the oath simply for subjecting these kids to the unpleasant side effects that occur when you give, say, a high-powered drug meant for fighting prostat.e cancer to an 11 year-old boy in the name of "reversible puberty blockers."
The medical necessity of these things is determined through application of the medical ethics "Double Effect" doctrine, which states: "The good effect outweighs the bad effect in circumstances sufficiently grave to justify causing the bad effect and the agent exercises due diligence to minimize the harm."
If it's not truly medically necessary but the same effect can be achieved through traditional psychiatric, "Non-Affirming" methods, ethics dictate those must be used.

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #135 on: February 28, 2023, 02:48:41 PM »
We have not moved past mutilating and castrating children and teenagers. That is what this thread is discussing.

You don't want to answer it. If you answer you are for it,  that's evil. If you answer that you aren't for it, that goes against your way of thinking. You in a predicament.
A predicament is mutilating male newborns and trying to justify it.
When it is done to females in is called FGM. You are between a rock and a hard place.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #136 on: February 28, 2023, 02:50:06 PM »
Now we agree.

My argument is not at all disingenuous. I have stated, I thought quite clearly, why I'm being a stickler for you to define the terms. Apparently, it wasn't clear enough. So to explain it, I'm pinning this VERY SIMPLE question on you. Please answer so we can move on.

I'll remind you the question, it really is very simple:

In this definition you include surgeries. The Boston Children's Hospital, for instance, DOES NOT provide most surgeries to children, and NO surgeries to children under 15. So the Boston Children's Hospital DOES NOT provide GAC according to your definition, correct?

Offline bochur22

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #137 on: February 28, 2023, 02:50:36 PM »
That would take a lot of time researching and fact checking your claims.

Can I get answer to my question?  :)
You have it below. But I'd think, that if Dr. Google isn't immediately bringing up the answers, it might give a rational thinker pause to consider the grave harm we may be doing to children. See, I also trust the medical community. But, if there's a 720 Degree about- face from the way we've always looked at something and treated it, and it involves the removal of healthy tissue from minors, there had better be some readily available, good evidence that there's justification for this. If it ain't broke, don't chop it off.

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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #138 on: February 28, 2023, 02:51:00 PM »
See, if these things aren't medically necessary, many of these treatments violate the oath simply for subjecting these kids to the unpleasant side effects that occur when you give, say, a high-powered drug meant for fighting prostat.e cancer to an 11 year-old boy in the name of "reversible puberty blockers."
The medical necessity of these things is determined through application of the medical ethics "Double Effect" doctrine, which states: "The good effect outweighs the bad effect in circumstances sufficiently grave to justify causing the bad effect and the agent exercises due diligence to minimize the harm."
If it's not truly medically necessary but the same effect can be achieved through traditional psychiatric, "Non-Affirming" methods, ethics dictate those must be used.
I appreciate the insight, but you avoided the question.
I am guessing you don't know of any.  ;)
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Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #139 on: February 28, 2023, 02:55:00 PM »
My argument is not at all disingenuous. I have stated, I thought quite clearly, why I'm being a stickler for you to define the terms. Apparently, it wasn't clear enough. So to explain it, I'm pinning this VERY SIMPLE question on you. Please answer so we can move on.

I'll remind you the question, it really is very simple:

In this definition you include surgeries. The Boston Children's Hospital, for instance, DOES NOT provide most surgeries to children, and NO surgeries to children under 15. So the Boston Children's Hospital DOES NOT provide GAC according to your definition, correct?
They preform surgeries on minors. So according to the definition (not mine) they provide GAC.
Not if you want to be honest if Boston's Childrens Hospital provides GAC, then go directly to the source. You don't want to be honest and instead are trying gotcha questions.
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