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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 5392 times)

Offline atwnsw

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Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« on: March 26, 2023, 02:43:06 PM »
Given today's headlines that Netenyahu just fired the Defense Minister, I would appreciate your insight in understanding why Judicial Reform is so important that it is tearing apart the fabric of a democratic society (for which there are relatively few in the world).  I watch this wondering if our country is next.

Netenyahu has always be a hawk when it comes to the defense of Israel, but it seems that his actions are weakening the country's military.  Is it an act of self preservation that is motivating his actions?  Why is he and his party so determined to weaken the judicial powers?

I would appreciate an education from both sides.

Thanks

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2023, 03:04:48 PM »
I have not been following closely, but the army (or some of its members) trying to force their view upon the elected government is the very definition of a coup.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2023, 10:23:19 PM »
I'm trying to figure out why it seems that frum people are in support of the change and nonfrum aren't.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2023, 10:29:41 PM »
I'm trying to figure out why it seems that frum people are in support of the change and nonfrum aren't.

Because the Supreme Court consistently makes decisions that non-frum people like and Frum people don't.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2023, 10:56:15 PM »
Because the Supreme Court consistently makes decisions that non-frum people like and Frum people don't.
Thatís a pretty large generalization of non-frum, I think support among the secular public is somewhat split if skewed to against it. Frum are definitely by and large for it.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2023, 11:12:43 PM »
Thatís a pretty large generalization of non-frum, I think support among the secular public is somewhat split if skewed to against it.

Right, I meant the non-frum people who are opposed to the reforms is (largely) because they like the results they get from the SC.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2023, 12:07:28 AM »
Given today's headlines that Netenyahu just fired the Defense Minister, I would appreciate your insight in understanding why Judicial Reform is so important that it is tearing apart the fabric of a democratic society (for which there are relatively few in the world).  I watch this wondering if our country is next.

Netenyahu has always be a hawk when it comes to the defense of Israel, but it seems that his actions are weakening the country's military.  Is it an act of self preservation that is motivating his actions?  Why is he and his party so determined to weaken the judicial powers?

I would appreciate an education from both sides.

Thanks
The problem is that the courts in Israel have much more power than, say, the courts in the US. The equivalent here would be if the supreme Court were a third house of Congress that all legislation has to pass through in order to become law.

Offline Proisrael

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2023, 12:54:40 AM »
Given today's headlines that Netenyahu just fired the Defense Minister, I would appreciate your insight in understanding why Judicial Reform is so important that it is tearing apart the fabric of a democratic society (for which there are relatively few in the world).  I watch this wondering if our country is next.

Netenyahu has always be a hawk when it comes to the defense of Israel, but it seems that his actions are weakening the country's military.  Is it an act of self preservation that is motivating his actions?  Why is he and his party so determined to weaken the judicial powers?

I would appreciate an education from both sides.

Thanks

Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.


Offline Sam 77

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2023, 12:57:09 AM »
Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.
Will it pass? And if yes when?

Offline Proisrael

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2023, 01:12:13 AM »
Will it pass? And if yes when?

At this point the most likely outcome is a pause in pushing for the change. The left is horrible at everything except for protests. They are masters of it. So basically the 200,000 people will shut the country of 9,000,000 and force new elections. We shall see if the right just gives up and stays home from voting or they come out in force like the last election.....but I dont see the legislation passing at this point.

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2023, 01:26:06 AM »
I'm trying to figure out why it seems that frum people are in support of the change and nonfrum aren't.
I don't know about all frum people but the haredi parties need the reform passed, specifically the part about the knesset can override supreme court cancelling laws, so they can repass the law that allows them not to do army service. Otherwise the court will once again over rule it.

The country is reaching a boiling point, but I wish people weren't using their army reserve duty as leverage. But hey it turns out that if 20% of the population does 80% of the work (per pareto's law), and some large amount of that 20% says they've had enough, then you have to listen to them.


This is an extraordinarily complex topic.
Israel does not have a constitution, it does not have 3 separate branches of government, and it doesn't have the british culture or history of it's not done.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2023, 03:26:02 AM »
This is an extraordinarily complex topic.
Israel does not have a constitution, it does not have 3 separate branches of government, and it doesn't have the british culture or history of it's not done.
+1
Also, there are a bunch of great posts in the Peace in the Middle East threads and also in the Israeli Election thread on this topic.
It is worth noting that most of the opposition has been vocal about the need for Supreme Court reforms. They are protesting now because the right is doing it and not them. In fact, there is a lot of hypocrisy going around - just like the hypocrisy shown by many Supreme Court rulings in the past.
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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2023, 07:59:04 AM »
כל דאלים גבר
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2023, 09:14:39 AM »
In 2005, after a full year of serious protests, the disengagement, with more than half of Israel opposing, still went ahead.
Why is the government caving in?!

Offline Yonah

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2023, 09:51:37 AM »
Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.

This was a great, and relatively objective explanation @Proisrael - thanks!


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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2023, 09:52:30 AM »
In 2005, after a full year of serious protests, the disengagement, with more than half of Israel opposing, still went ahead.
Why is the government caving in?!

Also a good question, my guess is for feat that the government will fall apart.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2023, 10:54:05 AM »
From the way the left is protesting, you can think that we are talking about a law something like להשמיד להרוג ולאבד את כל היהודים....

Insane how the left is afraid of losing decades of power...
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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2023, 11:41:47 AM »
But hey it turns out that if 20% of the population does 80% of the work (per pareto's law), and some large amount of that 20% says they've had enough, then you have to listen to them.


Am I the only one that finds this line a bit offensive?

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2023, 11:43:26 AM »
Have no idea what this is about but MSM is showing some big protests going on.
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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2023, 11:54:26 AM »
Have no idea what this is about but MSM is showing some big protests going on.

Basically the protesters view the American judiciary system as a dictatorship and want to avoid that system being replicated in Israel so it stays a democracy.