Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....

[bochur22]

And then on top of that, their schooling is (mostly, this depends on the town and there is a law about this) mostly paid from public taxes but then there's nothing learnt to prepare them for possible entry into the workforce so the cycle continues.

First of all, most decent positions here require previous army service, so we've come full circle
On top of that, in terms of strictly being prepared to make a living, I'd bet a significant percentage of your and my education is worth much less now due to the rapid advance of technology. Critical thingking and innovation is the name of the game in many industries. Try some Talmud study to see how that devlops those skills.

[bochur22]

Non essential in a military is hard to explain, because the vast majority of people are not warriors/combat but are still needed by the combat people:
cooks, mechanics, doctors, military police, people to build bases, people to fix the plumbing of the base, people to make sure the guns work, people to talk to other armies etc.

Once we've arrived here, I'll restate the general Chareidi position by modifying your quote a little bit:
Non essential in a military is hard to explain, because the vast majority of people are not warriors/combat but are still needed by the combat people:
For example, those who learn Torah are considered by the Chareidi public to give a tremendous amount of protection and success for those who fight on the front lines to defend the country

[bochur22]

By the way, if the Knesset were to adopt the Clinton Welfare bill exactly as written in the US, Torah study would be considered fulfilling the work requirments.

I had to give it's own quotation, explain.

Because the American government recognizes the idea that different cultures and ethnicities value different academic pursuits differently, therefore, pursuit of higher education is recognized as fulfilling the work requirments for welfare. Additionally, the United States still has a draft registration requirement, thought they haven't had a draft in 50 years. However, were they to draft, Yeshiva students would be exempt as well thanks to the same recognition of these values.

[bochur22]

Are you sure? I understood the registration was only for the receiving of certain benefits, but that you could get away without it.

It's against the law not to register, but they won't prosecute you.

[bochur22]

From the Selective Service website:
Even though you may not be prosecuted, you may be denied student financial assistance, federal job training, and most federal employment unless you can provide convincing evidence to the agency providing the benefit (not Selective Service) that your failure to register was not knowing and willful, along with a copy of your SIL.

[mevinyavin]

It's against the law not to register, but they won't prosecute you.

Already deleted my post. Google is my friend... (I remember registering for Selective Service. Fun times.)

[LongTimeLurker]

Once we've arrived here, I'll restate the general Chareidi position by modifying your quote a little bit:
Non essential in a military is hard to explain, because the vast majority of people are not warriors/combat but are still needed by the combat people:
For example, those who learn Torah are considered by the Chareidi public to give a tremendous amount of protection and success for those who fight on the front lines to defend the country

We're going to keep having this argument; just because you believe it doesn't make it acceptable to everyone else.

[LongTimeLurker]

I had to give it's own quotation, explain.

Because the American government recognizes the idea that different cultures and ethnicities value different academic pursuits differently, therefore, pursuit of higher education is recognized as fulfilling the work requirments for welfare. Additionally, the United States still has a draft registration requirement, thought they haven't had a draft in 50 years. However, were they to draft, Yeshiva students would be exempt as well thanks to the same recognition of these values.

I need a specific reference to pursuit of higher education is work requirement for welfare, and they let you just do it forever?
The US Draft exemption of Vietnam was specifically for members of divinity studies, not specifically to Jews. You can't compare the American view to the Israeli view on these things, nor the people of the time to now.

[gozalim]

You can't compare the American view to the Israeli view on these things, nor the people of the time to now.

So Israeli view is less accommodating of jewish tradition than the American view?
isn't that what we've been saying for 3 pages now?

[LongTimeLurker]

First of all, most decent positions here require previous army service, so we've come full circle
On top of that, in terms of strictly being prepared to make a living, I'd bet a significant percentage of your and my education is worth much less now due to the rapid advance of technology. Critical thingking and innovation is the name of the game in many industries. Try some Talmud study to see how that devlops those skills.

Most decent positions no longer require army service, that ship sailed a long time ago.
I can only speak for my education and say that it continues to be of tremendous relevance.
The talmud study critical thinking Trope doesn't hold up in the real world, unfortunately.

So Israeli view is less accommodating of jewish tradition than the American view?
isn't that what we've been saying for 3 pages now?

Not at all. Israeli haredim tend to be much more zealous (and Israeli) then their American brethren. The situation is extremely different. The US is a country at peace without a draft that treads lightly around anything that could possibly be a 1st amendment issue. The entire Jewish population of the US is around 2.4%, not even. The  entire orthodox population of the US (around 10% of the Jewish population per Pew) is a rounding error,  .24%.


In Israel, there is a draft, the Haredi population makes up 16% of the Jewish population (13.3% of the total population), and are largely supported indirectly by everyone else.

Israel in general is a fairly conservative, overly Jewish state and depending on who you ask, the majority are favorable towards Jewish tradition. The  lack of political will is pretty much how we ended up here today.

[imayid2]

https://akshiva.co.il/%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%94-%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%9C%D7%90-%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90/

[LongTimeLurker]

I thought that was a well written article, but his bottom line of because we need Torah learning to support the army doesn't carry water with the rest of Israel, religious and non religious.

[aygart]

I thought that was a well written article, but his bottom line of because we need Torah learning to support the army doesn't carry water with the rest of Israel, religious and non religious.

And the idea that the army won't fight against their religious observance doesn't hold water with the chareidim.

[EliJelly]

https://akshiva.co.il/%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%94-%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%9C%D7%90-%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90/

Any source to this?? Self contradicting with the very next argument about the secular environment in the army.

?ומה לגבי בן ישיבה שלא לומד בישיבה
!עליו התבטא החזון איש כבר לפני 70 שנה כי הוא רודף (דין חמור בהלכה המגדיר אדם שרודף כדי לרצוח את רעהו), וברמה העקרונית – ודאי שעליו להתגייס לצבא, ולא להשתמש בפטור לבני הישיבות

[bochur22]

We're going to keep having this argument; just because you believe it doesn't make it acceptable to everyone else.

I'm not entering this as the argument for you, just stating what the value actually is according to the Chareidim. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean you have a right to impose your values (with that lack of belief) on me. That's all.

[bochur22]

The talmud study critical thinking Trope doesn't hold up in the real world, unfortunately.

Source?
ETA: I know plenty of people at least in america with no high school education who are doing quite well

[bochur22]

Israel in general is a fairly conservative, overly Jewish state and depending on who you ask, the majority our favorable towards Jewish tradition. The  lack of political will is pretty much how we ended up here today.

The cultural difference between "Favorable towards Jewish tradition" and "Have a guiding principal that has say in every aspect of my life, from which way I button my shirt in the morning, to which way I lay down to sleep at night" is considerable. It shouldn't be surprising that Chareidim disagree with Chiloni assertions about how accomodating the Tzahal is to Chareidim when we are, as I've tried to emphasize thoughout, operating on 2 different wavelengths, with different values. That's not lack of political will. It's 2 fundamentally different lifestyles. So we ask you not try to impose your values and understandings on us

[EliJelly]

Let's face it, the ever growing charedi population in a self governing Israel is a catch 22. What will the State look like when charedim will be 65% of the population. Will they expect the 35-% to serve for the larger population? Will they run it according to Torah rules? Will Mizrachi and the rest ever agree on what the Torah dictates?

Of course we wait for Moshiach and with that the abolishment of the entire State as we know it. But that's not something the secular Israeli sees as the end game here. 

[LongTimeLurker]

Source?
ETA: I know plenty of people at least in america with no high school education who are doing quite well

From here https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001437039.

I agree with not everyone needing a hs education to succeed.
Just keep in mind that
1. This is usually not most people. The statistics in the us for high school dropouts are rough.
2. Your american example doesn't cross over to Israel because the americans speak English, which opens up tons of ways to make money, live in a society which is ok with them working, and honestly, it's just easier to make money in the US then almost anywhere else.

[imayid2]

Any source to this?? Self contradicting with the very next argument about the secular environment in the army.

Can’t imagine there is a reliable source for it, but I don’t necessarily see it as self contradictory as he assumes that if the Chareidim were actually motivated to kasher the army they could potentially do so (color me skeptical on this). So he’s talking about that theoretical kosher army.