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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 45164 times)

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #180 on: June 13, 2023, 04:12:19 PM »

From here https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001437039.

I agree with not everyone needing a hs education to succeed.
Just keep in mind that
1. This is usually not most people. The statistics in the us for high school dropouts are rough.
2. Your american example doesn't cross over to Israel because the americans speak English, which opens up tons of ways to make money, live in a society which is ok with them working, and honestly, it's just easier to make money in the US then almost anywhere else.


Umm that is not about succeeding in life but about joining academia. It also shows a personal bias of the writer against them. Chareidim don't know how to be on time? Seriously? There are hundreds of kollelim where there is no such thing as being late. They don't know what tests are about? Go tell that to Dirshu!
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #181 on: June 13, 2023, 05:45:37 PM »
Touro College University has among the highest pass rates on the CPA exams.
Many yeshiva guys go straight from yeshiva to law school - no undergraduate at all!
The examples are almost endless.

Maybe, as usual, the Israeli Chiloni expects the charedi to take the liberal arrts program in the college seriously, when all he'sthere for is to get his degree in whatever field... and doesn't care about his GPA just a pass, and knowing the relevant material?
Maybe it's the guys who couldn't make it in yeshiva who the athor knows...bec they had all of the problems he mentions?

As someone who did learn secular studies until i was 18, unless we're talking about a feild that is math dependant, there's no reason the average yeshiva guy should take mor ethan two years tops to catch up with the averge secular student.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #182 on: June 13, 2023, 06:18:50 PM »
The way most stuff is set up here, the Haredi lifestyle is directly and indirectly subsidized. So while they chose to live in tzimzum, it's only because it's indirectly funded by everyone else. The stipends themselves are only a small part. Most discounts and social service availability is not tied to any means and is solely based on if you're making enough money as a result.
I'm actually interested in seeing an unbiased study to clarify if this is indeed so. Does an avreich pay less in taxes than he personaly receives in indirect subsidies that target him?
I'm not talking about paying his fair share of the costs of defence or the like, Just what he receives in direct benifit.
Quote
If you look at the Jerusalem Arnona for example, the city basically is short 40% a year.
Actually, the reports ths week showed that the non pay rate among the arab population is 23% (on legal buildings, not including non payment for illeagal ones), while the total jewish one is under 8%
If you mean reduced rates due to low income... Yes the system needs reform - Nothing to do with learning! If your parents, who are "paying your rent directly to the landord", can afford to pay 14000 niis a month for your dira, you damn well can pay full rate arnona
Quote
A non working married man will pay around 150 nis a month to bituach leumi for healthcare, while receiving the full Sal. (BTW as an aside, non working married women don't pay anything, which is a vestige of socialism here and ridiculous).
I doubt that the average avreich between 20-40 uses anything close to that in services yearly.
That non working woman receive is a societal decision, that has nothing to do with socialism, and more to do with the good of children.
On the other hand the idea that all must serve, no matter what, IS a vestige of socialism.
BTW The groups that are the greatest anti army, don't participate in Bituach Leumi either.

Quote
And then on top of that, their schooling is (mostly, this depends on the town and there is a law about this) mostly paid from public taxes but then there's nothing learnt to prepare them for possible entry into the workforce so the cycle continues. For the men, anyway.
Mostly... not so sure about that. DO you know what the public per pupil expendeture is in the chareidi system vs the other streams?
Quote
I don't really get this argument and I don't think it would have a big impact as you think. The couples would go bankrupt, the houses would be sold, the banks would get most of their money back because they only loaned 70% LTV and the non secured lenders would eat it. Israel as a rule has very conservative underwriting even when there were insanely low interest rates.
So said the wall street analysts about the US housing market circa 2007.
You underestimate the effect of economic instability/collapse on housing prices. Once there's a raft of foreclosures and short sales, the prices will collapse, people will be underwater - at the current high interest rates... And many people have more than 70%from the bank. It's possible with additional unsecured loans.

Quote
The whole system of government needs a reform; you have an executive branch that is not really held in check by the legislature because it controls the legislature. You have a series of laws that have no meaning etc.. I could go on, I think the court is Leftist but not as left as people make it out to be, and because the other branches of government tend to overreach they're left in this weird unenviable position of having to rule on things that should rightly just be the purview of the knesset
Mostly true, and I happen not to be in favor of the draft reform proposals at all. I beleive that they were ment to be a starting point to negotiate from, and the left just refused, and started burning things

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #183 on: June 13, 2023, 06:31:07 PM »
Canít imagine there is a reliable source for it, but I donít necessarily see it as self contradictory as he assumes that if the Chareidim were actually motivated to kasher the army they could potentially do so (color me skeptical on this). So heís talking about that theoretical kosher army.

Pure fabrication in order to please the Israelis that "we're not against drafting our boys per se". They should just leave the Chazon Ish out of this cr**.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #184 on: June 13, 2023, 08:59:38 PM »
Pure fabrication in order to please the Israelis that "we're not against drafting our boys per se". They should just leave the Chazon Ish out of this cr**.
Found ďitĒ lol

Itís a corruption of this in במחיצתם by R Shloma Lorintz


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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #185 on: June 13, 2023, 10:20:52 PM »
Found ďitĒ lol

Itís a corruption of this in במחיצתם by R Shloma Lorintz

That's what I remembered. Because he's going to ruin it for the Yeshivas. Like the COVID entry stuff that was going on in some places.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #186 on: June 14, 2023, 12:36:43 AM »
Found ďitĒ lol

Itís a corruption of this in במחיצתם by R Shloma Lorintz


That's what I remembered. Because he's going to ruin it for the Yeshivas. Like the COVID entry stuff that was going on in some places.

נניח that this is indeed true, his issue was using the ben yeshiva status falsely, thus ruining it for everyone else. That's a far cry from וברמה העקרונית Ė ודאי שעליו להתגייס לצבא. He should try different routes to avoid being drafted (Exgingi had some creative ideas). Ascribing an obligation to serve in the army if someone isn't learning in yeshiva to the Chazon Ish is a disgusting lie.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 12:54:57 AM by EliJelly »

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #187 on: June 14, 2023, 03:05:38 AM »
I think that both sides have the unfortunate habit of conflating their different points/claims/arguments/beliefs which (can) lead to the feeling that the other side is arguning in bad faith (which in some case is true!)

The universal army service proponents arguments include:
1) The unfairness of not taking part in their sacrifices for the country i.e. everyone needs to serve.
2) The need for manpower for the army.
3) Chareidim need to work and not study torah all day, rely on the public dole, ect....

The Chareidim on the other hand argue (some or all of the following depending where you are on the chareidi spectrum)
1) Torah study is the supreme value and some who is devoted to it should not be requiered to take part in any other activity that will detract from it.
2) The army enviroment in not appropriate for a "Ben Torah".
3) Denial of the right of the state to mandate service (This ranges from denial of the states right to mandate anything to the states duty to recognize my minority rights)

These are all seperate arguments, and its not really effective to justify one claim by leaning on the second as backup..

The chareidi response to each of the proponents claims are different too:
Quote
1) The unfairness of not taking part in their sacrifices for the country i.e. everyone needs to serve.
The Chareidi says "You have a value, and  it is not a value to me, I have other values which I find much more important, do what you want and leave me alone"  To which the proponents repeat, like a mantra, "but it's not fair (that you don't do what I want according to my values!)". At the end of the day the chareidi says that's a you problem not a me problem, while most of the general population are stuck, like a broken CD, on"Its not fair", never acnologing that the chareidi's right to his own different values.

Quote
2) The need for manpower for the army in peace/war.
Your inability to manage your army's logistics and/or manpower properly, is not really our issue (especially since we see no intrinsic value in service and see value in doing other things with our time). Sort yourselves out, cut the fat, trim the waste and then we can talk about you require our service or whether this is just a bad faith argument to support claims one and three.

Your strategic errors in outsourcing support roles to sectors ill suited for reliability during time of conflict is not an arguement in favor of forcing us to do it. (BTW why do you think that the army won't have similar reliability problems with chariedi support staff? Your (the armies) standard of Pikuach Nefesh needed to be mechalel shabbos comes nowhere close to what you would need for a chareidi to do it - [as heard from chardal freinds and relatives who served]);
This also leads to general questioning if the current method of staffing the army is the most effective one, or is it just becuase of claim one?
What gives you a better fighting force, with maximum use of available resorces: A proffesional army made up of career soldiers who spend years training plus a reserve core of, or an army where you are constantly training new recruits just for them to to serve in active service for a year or two? What gives you a better support team - profesionals who do it for years or new recruits all the time? Who would you rather have in the alley with Shireen Abu Akleh? or guarding a checkpoint? A kid just out of basic training or someone who has trained all his life for that moment?

Quote
3) Chareidim need to work and not study torah all day, rely on the public dole, ect....
The army is for fighting wars, not solving your perception of our need for job training. If that is really needed, there are other, less objectionable ways to do that.
This has nothing to do with army service, and while it has it's time and place to be discussed ,should not be conflated into the army service argument, unless your argument is a general "chareidim are parasites"

Bl"n i will breakdown the chareidi claims when i have a bit more time
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 03:38:40 AM by yfr bachur »

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #188 on: June 14, 2023, 08:52:05 AM »
From here https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001437039.
My Ivrit isn't the best. so I fed this into translate. Not unbiased, nor does he seem to have any idea about Yeshiva education. I'll put the translation up and respond:
Many times we hear the ultra-Orthodox leadership say:
Torah studies provide such high skills that there is no
problem for young people to complete the core subjects at
the age of 20, if they decide to retire in favor of studies
and work
"I say this in the clearest way possible: this is a lie. Those who studied
in a yeshiva do not have any tools to integrate into academia,
nothing. Sometimes even the opposite, because they have acquired habits
that do not fit there. Haredim do not know what tests are, what
homework is, what It's being on time. Students in first grade learn
how to organize themselves for learning, including even going to the
bathroom before class. Haredim are not in these worlds. They are
busy arguing with teachers, because they come from a culture
of learning and rabbinicism. In the Talmud and Gemara, it's all
arguments all the time.
"There is also an objective difficulty. A married person with children who
wants to study at a university, without a kollel scholarship, is subject to
financial pressure. There is only one field in which ultra-Orthodox
who studied in yeshiva have an advantage: text analysis. In this field, the
ultra-Orthodox society is Ben Nora Bere'i

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #189 on: June 14, 2023, 09:06:05 AM »
Haredim do not know what tests are, what
homework is, what It's being on time.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2093360/over-ten-thousand-watch-hundreds-of-bachurim-and-avreichim-tested-on-shas.html
Shas is about 5400 pages of material (Tested at once!)
https://www.dirshu.co.il/377850-2/
Those are the first things that pop up. Every place has tests, and being on time is of tremendous value to us.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #190 on: June 14, 2023, 09:09:04 AM »
Students in first grade learn
how to organize themselves for learning, including even going to the
bathroom before class.
? The style of learning is mainly classroom based at least until 8th grade.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #191 on: June 14, 2023, 09:11:30 AM »
They are
busy arguing with teachers, because they come from a culture
of learning and rabbinicism. In the Talmud and Gemara, it's all
arguments all the time.
Discussion and argument are 2 different words, denoting 2 different kinds of interaction. This guy sounds like he could benefit from some discussion with actual Chareidim, as opposed to the sloppy Neanderthals he's imagining

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #192 on: June 14, 2023, 09:12:57 AM »
My Ivrit isn't the best. so I fed this into translate. Not unbiased, nor does he seem to have any idea about Yeshiva education. I'll put the translation up and respond:
Many times we hear the ultra-Orthodox leadership say:
Torah studies provide such high skills that there is no
problem for young people to complete the core subjects at
the age of 20, if they decide to retire in favor of studies
and work
"I say this in the clearest way possible: this is a lie. Those who studied
in a yeshiva do not have any tools to integrate into academia,
nothing. Sometimes even the opposite, because they have acquired habits
that do not fit there. Haredim do not know what tests are, what
homework is, what It's being on time. Students in first grade learn
how to organize themselves for learning, including even going to the
bathroom before class. Haredim are not in these worlds. They are
busy arguing with teachers, because they come from a culture
of learning and rabbinicism. In the Talmud and Gemara, it's all
arguments all the time.
"There is also an objective difficulty. A married person with children who
wants to study at a university, without a kollel scholarship, is subject to
financial pressure. There is only one field in which ultra-Orthodox
who studied in yeshiva have an advantage: text analysis. In this field, the
ultra-Orthodox society is Ben Nora Bere'i


It is so biased that it reflects on the one quoting it too.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #193 on: June 14, 2023, 09:13:56 AM »
"There is also an objective difficulty. A married person with children who
wants to study at a university, without a kollel scholarship, is subject to
financial pressure. There is only one field in which ultra-Orthodox
who studied in yeshiva have an advantage: text analysis. In this field, the
ultra-Orthodox society is Ben Nora Bere'i
While nothing about this hatchet job is objective, there is no reason why this applies more to Chareidim studying in university then anyone else

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #194 on: June 14, 2023, 09:15:58 AM »
It is so biased that it reflects on the one quoting it too.
I would rather believe in unfamiliarity with our culture than say that a nice guy like @LongTimeLurker is as knowingly slanted as the interesting fellow who authored the drivel in the first place

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #195 on: June 14, 2023, 09:23:19 AM »
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2093360/over-ten-thousand-watch-hundreds-of-bachurim-and-avreichim-tested-on-shas.html
Shas is about 5400 pages of material (Tested at once!)
https://www.dirshu.co.il/377850-2/
Those are the first things that pop up. Every place has tests, and being on time is of tremendous value to us.
Not sure why you say every place has tests which definitely isnít true, and these tests are completely optional not mandatory assessments.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #196 on: June 14, 2023, 09:25:19 AM »
Not sure why you say every place has tests which definitely isnít true, and these tests are completely optional not mandatory assessments.
Optional or not (and I don't think tests are optional in before Mesivta) we definitely know what tests are

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #197 on: June 14, 2023, 09:53:19 AM »
Touro College University has among the highest pass rates on the CPA exams.
Many yeshiva guys go straight from yeshiva to law school - no undergraduate at all!
The examples are almost endless.

Maybe, as usual, the Israeli Chiloni expects the charedi to take the liberal arrts program in the college seriously, when all he'sthere for is to get his degree in whatever field... and doesn't care about his GPA just a pass, and knowing the relevant material?
Maybe it's the guys who couldn't make it in yeshiva who the athor knows...bec they had all of the problems he mentions?

As someone who did learn secular studies until i was 18, unless we're talking about a feild that is math dependant, there's no reason the average yeshiva guy should take mor ethan two years tops to catch up with the averge secular student.

There are a lot of Haredi lawyers in Israel (relative; too many lawyers in this country), because they opened up programs for it. But there are not a lot of haredi doctors, scientists etc.
I would rather believe in unfamiliarity with our culture than say that a nice guy like @LongTimeLurker is as knowingly slanted as the interesting fellow who authored the drivel in the first place
I mean the culture is very wide so it depends on how haredi you are, the guy quoted in the interview is Haredi from Bayit Vagan, but honestly if you say I'm wrong great. As a general rule though it's not like yeshiva preps you for secular studies, let's just leave at that.

I'm actually interested in seeing an unbiased study to clarify if this is indeed so. Does an avreich pay less in taxes than he personaly receives in indirect subsidies that target him?
I went and looked, it's extremely hard to find an unbiased study. Either it's a newspaper outlet trying to create a narrative around specific Central Bureau of Statistics data, the Israeli Democracy Institute which tends to have a leftist bent (although they have an excellent yearly write up on haredi society which is "just the facts maam" and therefore doesn't include tax data), and then Haredi organizations trying to present their side. I will try and dig into CBS data but it will take me a while.
However you can do that math, an Avreich pays no taxes because he is below the poverty line, so unless his wife makes a lot of money, they pay very little arnona, receive benefits from the social welfare office, and any healthcare costs etc, and any other direct benefits that the system has in place for below X amount of money.

Quote


If you mean reduced rates due to low income... Yes the system needs reform - Nothing to do with learning! If your parents, who are "paying your rent directly to the landord", can afford to pay 14000 niis a month for your dira, you damn well can pay full rate arnona
Right but the system is built that way specifically because of Haredi society.. A lot of these benefits were written over time so they would pass judicial review but were targeted towards a certain segment of society.

Quote
DO you know what the public per pupil expendeture is in the chareidi system vs the other streams?
I have an idea, based on this recent study it's is less, depending on which system you're in.
Quote
So said the wall street analysts about the US housing market circa 2007.

You underestimate the effect of economic instability/collapse on housing prices. Once there's a raft of foreclosures and short sales, the prices will collapse, people will be underwater - at the current high interest rates... And many people have more than 70%from the bank. It's possible with additional unsecured loans.

The percentage of at risk loans is low. I cannot be responsible for irrational exuberance in a bubble and bubbles need to deflate.
Also, Israeli law is different the US law:
Mortgages are full recourse; banks typically have to find you a place to live for up to 18 months etc. It's not so simple to foreclose.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #198 on: June 14, 2023, 09:53:28 AM »
I would rather believe in unfamiliarity with our culture than say that a nice guy like @LongTimeLurker is as knowingly slanted as the interesting fellow who authored the drivel in the first place
That can be what it shows but then it is an ignorant opinion. You can't really say that it is compatible with their lifestyle is you are ignorant about it.

While we are at it, how compatible are these supposed traits compatible with the army?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #199 on: June 14, 2023, 09:58:34 AM »
There are a lot of Haredi lawyers in Israel (relative; too many lawyers in this country), because they opened up programs for it. But there are not a lot of haredi doctors, scientists etc.
I'd say that goes the other way, if they opened programs and then people can be successful?