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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 45836 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #200 on: June 14, 2023, 10:01:38 AM »
Isnít the draft a big part of the difficulty Chareidim face in entering the work force?

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #201 on: June 14, 2023, 10:02:02 AM »
I don't think the bias is "anti chareidi", rather it is the expectation that the other will conform himself to your standards and customs.
The charedi method of assimilation of information is different than the rest of the world is used to. We talk out loud, we repeat important ideas to ourself, we challenge the truth of every statement... until we know that what we learned is correct. Going to the bathroom during class??? I know of no shiur yomi in any yeshiva where it is the norm for people to walk out in the middle to excuse themselves... maybe during a 4 hour seder, not during shiur!

The author is right that talmud study gives you no advantage at modern dance theory, or many therapies... but there are many fields in science and law where text analysis is king!

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #202 on: June 14, 2023, 10:03:05 AM »
As a general rule though it's not like yeshiva preps you for secular studies, let's just leave at that.
The general rule in your experience? Other than one guy claiming to be Chareidi with a clear and unrelenting bias, what do you have to base this on?

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #203 on: June 14, 2023, 10:03:42 AM »


The chareidi response to each of the proponents claims are different too:The Chareidi says "You have a value, and  it is not a value to me, I have other values which I find much more important, do what you want and leave me alone"  To which the proponents repeat, like a mantra, "but it's not fair (that you don't do what I want according to my values!)". At the end of the day the chareidi says that's a you problem not a me problem, while most of the general population are stuck, like a broken CD, on"Its not fair", never acnologing that the chareidi's right to his own different values.
Your inability to manage your army's logistics and/or manpower properly, is not really our issue (especially since we see no intrinsic value in service and see value in doing other things with our time). Sort yourselves out, cut the fat, trim the waste and then we can talk about you require our service or whether this is just a bad faith argument to support claims one and three.
The "it's a you problem not a me problem" is just infuriating/aggravating. When a terrorist comes into bnei brak he doesn't care if your litvish, hiloni or from Gur. When a bigger war comes do you think the missiles will ask if you did army service? What kind of planet do you have to live on to be in this bizarre bubble?
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Your strategic errors in outsourcing support roles to sectors ill suited for reliability during time of conflict is not an arguement in favor of forcing us to do it. (BTW why do you think that the army won't have similar reliability problems with chariedi support staff? Your (the armies) standard of Pikuach Nefesh needed to be mechalel shabbos comes nowhere close to what you would need for a chareidi to do it - [as heard from chardal freinds and relatives who served]);
Because at the end of the day Charedim are Jews, and will not have a problem trucking soldiers up Lebanon to protect them.
There is a whole body of psika on how to serve in the army; The Haredi [Israeli, which is very different from the US btw] psika related to pikuach nefesh always very conveniently relies that in the end of the day, someone else will take care of the borderline cases.
That being said, I served with very frum people who were extremely makpid and it was never an issue.
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This also leads to general questioning if the current method of staffing the army is the most effective one, or is it just becuase of claim one?
What gives you a better fighting force, with maximum use of available resorces: A proffesional army made up of career soldiers who spend years training plus a reserve core of, or an army where you are constantly training new recruits just for them to to serve in active service for a year or two? What gives you a better support team - profesionals who do it for years or new recruits all the time? Who would you rather have in the alley with Shireen Abu Akleh? or guarding a checkpoint? A kid just out of basic training or someone who has trained all his life for that moment?
This is a fabulous question which I will not do justice to in a response; I am not sure how good your hebrew is but I highly suggest both the book מגש הכסף by Ofer Shelach, and this recent interview he gave.

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This has nothing to do with army service, and while it has it's time and place to be discussed ,should not be conflated into the army service argument, unless your argument is a general "chareidim are parasites"

Bl"n i will breakdown the chareidi claims when i have a bit more time
I don't think they are parasites; I  also don't think you can say all haredim as one, but I Think that a culture has developed which requires the State and the support of taxpayers without realizing the implications

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #204 on: June 14, 2023, 10:05:10 AM »
The author is right that talmud study gives you no advantage at modern dance theory, or many therapies... but there are many fields in science and law where text analysis is king!
Also keep in mind that critical analysis of ideas is also developed by Talmud study, not just text analysis

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #205 on: June 14, 2023, 10:05:40 AM »
Isnít the draft a big part of the difficulty Chareidim face in entering the work force?
It is now because of the way it's set up. so the ministry of finance, which is more concerned about money and GDP, is happy to lower the age so they can go out to work.
I'd say that goes the other way, if they opened programs and then people can be successful?
I'd be thrilled if they did but I think in the STEM fields there'd be a lot more catching up to do.

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #206 on: June 14, 2023, 10:07:01 AM »


Of course we wait for Moshiach and with that the abolishment of the entire State as we know it. But that's not something the secular Israeli sees as the end game here.
This is the most infuriating sentence I have ever read on this board.

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #207 on: June 14, 2023, 10:08:17 AM »
The "it's a you problem not a me problem" is just infuriating/aggravating. When a terrorist comes into bnei brak he doesn't care if your litvish, hiloni or from Gur. When a bigger war comes do you think the missiles will ask if you did army service? What kind of planet do you have to live on to be in this bizarre bubble?
What I think is meant is that if, in your solution based on your value system, you wind up with a problem, that is still not a reason to impose your values on others who don't share them

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #208 on: June 14, 2023, 10:08:47 AM »
This is the most infuriating sentence I have ever read on this board.
Thought you'd read that eventually, and probably misunderstand it too.
Edit: He's not advocating a Niturei Kartanik postion, he's hoping for the Messianic peace that will follow the coming of Mashiach

Offline imayid2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #209 on: June 14, 2023, 10:09:56 AM »
This is the most infuriating sentence I have ever read on this board.
Isnít this a classic Agudist position? The secular state has nothing to do with The Geulah. So itíll have to be completely reconfigured.

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #210 on: June 14, 2023, 10:11:11 AM »
Isnít this a classic Agudist position? The secular state has nothing to do with The Geulah. So itíll have to be completely reconfigured.
Yes, but read without the context of knowing much about Jewish beliefs, it sounds different

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #211 on: June 14, 2023, 10:18:46 AM »
There are a lot of Haredi lawyers in Israel (relative; too many lawyers in this country), because they opened up programs for it. But there are not a lot of haredi doctors, scientists etc.I
So open appropriate programs... build it and they will come...
It happens to be, that if your goal is to encourage Chareidi participation in the work force, the effective method would be to just make culturaly appropriate training available and dont try to shove it down their throats. The force induces societal blowblack which is counter productive to your goals.
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I went and looked, it's extremely hard to find an unbiased study. Either it's a newspaper outlet trying to create a narrative around specific Central Bureau of Statistics data, the Israeli Democracy Institute which tends to have a leftist bent (although they have an excellent yearly write up on haredi society which is "just the facts maam" and therefore doesn't include tax data), and then Haredi organizations trying to present their side. I will try and dig into CBS data but it will take me a while.
Thank You.

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However you can do that math, an Avreich pays no income taxes because he is below the poverty line, so unless his wife makes a lot of money, they pay very little arnona, receive benefits from the social welfare office, and any healthcare costs etc, and any other direct benefits that the system has in place for below X amount of money.
FTFY. 17% of every purchase goes to Uncle Bibi, just in VAT (not counting the various import taxes that were charged on the item). Real Estate taxes...

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Right but the system is built that way specifically because of Haredi society.. A lot of these benefits were written over time so they would pass judicial review but were targeted
I don't know the history of the arnona laws, but they're ripe for reform.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #212 on: June 14, 2023, 10:19:58 AM »
This is the most infuriating sentence I have ever read on this board.

Why? Is it not true?

deleted as per the request of @mevinyavin

Oh believe me I know the context and it's still infuriating.

Care to explain why?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 10:26:48 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #213 on: June 14, 2023, 10:22:12 AM »
Yes, but read without the context of knowing much about Jewish beliefs, it sounds different

Oh believe me I know the context and it's still infuriating.

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #214 on: June 14, 2023, 10:23:17 AM »
I haven't been participating (much) thus far, lacking anything productive to add. As a reader, though, I have one request (if I am allowed): try to stick to relevant information. The conversation will be more focused that way, and hopefully less likely to annoy anyone.
What the world will look like when Moshiach comes is unclear enough that it is not worth speculating. It is also entirely irrelevant to this matter.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 10:26:22 AM by mevinyavin »
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #215 on: June 14, 2023, 10:28:09 AM »
What I think is meant is that if, in your solution based on your value system, you wind up with a problem, that is still not a reason to impose your values on others who don't share them
We're not imposing values, just saying serve in the army.
Believe me if the army can make sure that the Black Hebrews get their crazy food requirements, then they can (and will) take care of hecsherim, shabbat l'humrah etc

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #216 on: June 14, 2023, 10:30:15 AM »
So open appropriate programs... build it and they will come...
It happens to be, that if your goal is to encourage Chareidi participation in the work force, the effective method would be to just make culturaly appropriate training available and dont try to shove it down their throats.
I agree with you. We're conflating army service and jobs. They are two different things.
Jobs: happy for haredim to work, happy to give them individual programs, but in certain fields they're gonna have to interact with non haredim and women (medicine etc), how does that work?
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FTFY. 17% of every purchase goes to Uncle Bibi, just in VAT (not counting the various import taxes that were charged on the item). Real Estate taxes...
I don't know the history of the arnona laws, but they're ripe for reform.
Great. I pay VAT too, on top of my income tax. The fact that they pay VAT doesn't reduce the fact that they are living in subsidized poverty/

Online aygart

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #217 on: June 14, 2023, 10:33:53 AM »
As a general rule though it's not like yeshiva preps you for secular studies, let's just leave at that.


That is not really relevant unless you consider secular studies an end unto itself. As long as they can be productive members of society we should be good.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #218 on: June 14, 2023, 10:36:29 AM »
I'd be thrilled if they did but I think in the STEM fields there'd be a lot more catching up to do.
I have a son who did not have secular studies in high school and went to a 2 hour a week for two years program to get a GED. He is now in Pre-med. There are some subjects that he needs a little help in because of his lack of background, but nothing not overcome by simply studying the background and making the effort.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #219 on: June 14, 2023, 10:37:33 AM »
The "it's a you problem not a me problem" is just infuriating/aggravating. When a terrorist comes into bnei brak he doesn't care if your litvish, hiloni or from Gur. When a bigger war comes do you think the missiles will ask if you did army service? What kind of planet do you have to live on to be in this bizarre bubble?

Not referning to the need for security forces. refering to the ideological demand for socialist universal service.
By your own admission, army HR is mismanaged, has sections that are wholy understaffed, while others suffer from bloat and no work jobs.
How about a reform of the army, not based on we need to find a way to place every draftee, but rather based on performance and need.
(My opinion:) We should have a first class career army, staffed by people who get the best training, and get paid a fair salary. With out the bloat of unneeded arcaic historical jobs and postions.