The chareidi response to each of the proponents claims are different too:The Chareidi says "You have a value, and it is not a value to me, I have other values which I find much more important, do what you want and leave me alone" To which the proponents repeat, like a mantra, "but it's not fair (that you don't do what I want according to my values!)". At the end of the day the chareidi says that's a you problem not a me problem, while most of the general population are stuck, like a broken CD, on"Its not fair", never acnologing that the chareidi's right to his own different values.
Your inability to manage your army's logistics and/or manpower properly, is not really our issue (especially since we see no intrinsic value in service and see value in doing other things with our time). Sort yourselves out, cut the fat, trim the waste and then we can talk about you require our service or whether this is just a bad faith argument to support claims one and three.
The "it's a you problem not a me problem" is just infuriating/aggravating. When a terrorist comes into bnei brak he doesn't care if your litvish, hiloni or from Gur. When a bigger war comes do you think the missiles will ask if you did army service? What kind of planet do you have to live on to be in this bizarre bubble?
Your strategic errors in outsourcing support roles to sectors ill suited for reliability during time of conflict is not an arguement in favor of forcing us to do it. (BTW why do you think that the army won't have similar reliability problems with chariedi support staff? Your (the armies) standard of Pikuach Nefesh needed to be mechalel shabbos comes nowhere close to what you would need for a chareidi to do it - [as heard from chardal freinds and relatives who served]);
Because at the end of the day Charedim are Jews, and will not have a problem trucking soldiers up Lebanon to protect them.
There is a whole body of psika on how to serve in the army; The Haredi [Israeli, which is very different from the US btw] psika related to pikuach nefesh always very conveniently relies that in the end of the day, someone else will take care of the borderline cases.
That being said, I served with very frum people who were extremely makpid and it was never an issue.
This also leads to general questioning if the current method of staffing the army is the most effective one, or is it just becuase of claim one?
What gives you a better fighting force, with maximum use of available resorces: A proffesional army made up of career soldiers who spend years training plus a reserve core of, or an army where you are constantly training new recruits just for them to to serve in active service for a year or two? What gives you a better support team - profesionals who do it for years or new recruits all the time? Who would you rather have in the alley with Shireen Abu Akleh? or guarding a checkpoint? A kid just out of basic training or someone who has trained all his life for that moment?
This is a fabulous question which I will not do justice to in a response; I am not sure how good your hebrew is but I highly suggest both the book מגש הכסף by Ofer Shelach, and this recent interview he gave.
This has nothing to do with army service, and while it has it's time and place to be discussed ,should not be conflated into the army service argument, unless your argument is a general "chareidim are parasites"
Bl"n i will breakdown the chareidi claims when i have a bit more time
I don't think they are parasites; I also don't think you can say all haredim as one, but I Think that a culture has developed which requires the State and the support of taxpayers without realizing the implications
Topic Wiki
