Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....

[aygart]

Oh believe me I know the context and it's still infuriating.

Ahhh messianic zionism....

[yfr bachur]

I agree with you. We're conflating army service and jobs. They are two different things.
Jobs: happy for haredim to work, happy to give them individual programs, but in certain fields they're gonna have to interact with non haredim and women (medicine etc), how does that work?

They will. They do. Have you ever seen a Hatzala member refuse to treat a member of the opposite gender?
Dr Stein (The Brisker Doctor - sees patients after three sedarim: from 10PMish to 2/3AM) treats women.
 Those who have a problem with that will opt for professions that don't have public facing roles.

Great. I pay VAT too, on top of my income tax. The fact that they pay VAT doesn't reduce the fact that they are living in subsidized poverty/

My question was does the average chareidi as an individual receive more than he contributes in taxes? (excluding calculations of does he pay his fair share of defence funding or funding new roads)

[yfr bachur]

We're not imposing values, just saying serve in the army.

Sorry, you're not getting it:
The entire idea of Mandatory Universal National Service IS a value based on certain outlooks and views about the state, security, socialistic ideas of fairness, BG perception of the army being the crucible of the "New" Israeli....

Chareidim don't value this value, and have other alternate values in its place.

Believe me if the army can make sure that the Black Hebrews get their crazy food requirements, then they can (and will) take care of hecsherim, shabbat l'humrah etc

What I hear from my friends and relatives who serve makes me doubt this greatly.
Why do you think the army will be succesful providing for the needs of the Chareidi soldier, when the Chardalim feel like they're getting run out of the army by successful leftist demands for full gender intigration,and has PROVEN incapable of keeping its field kitchens kosher???

[mevinyavin]

On the main thread topic. Note: written by an opponent of the reform.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-more-religious-the-more-support-analyzing-attitudes-to-the-judicial-overhaul/

[LongTimeLurker]

My question was does the average chareidi as an individual receive more than he contributes in taxes? (excluding calculations of does he pay his fair share of defence funding or funding new roads)

And I answered, yes.

(My opinion:) We should have a first class career army, staffed by people who get the best training, and get paid a fair salary. With out the bloat of unneeded arcaic historical jobs and postions.

You need to go up thread and look at the Ofer Shelach stuff.

I have a son who did not have secular studies in high school and went to a 2 hour a week for two years program to get a GED. He is now in Pre-med. There are some subjects that he needs a little help in because of his lack of background, but nothing not overcome by simply studying the background and making the effort.

This is great; he's in the US, right? On both sides of Israel (both from the secular academia side which makes this needlessly difficult for things like medicine) and the haredi side (good luck getting your kids into school) it's much harder.

As a rule though this doesn't work for everyone

[LongTimeLurker]

Sorry, you're not getting it:
The entire idea of Mandatory Universal National Service IS a value based on certain outlooks and views about the state, security, socialistic ideas of fairness, BG perception of the army being the crucible of the "New" Israeli....

Chareidim don't value this value, and have other alternate values in its place.
What I hear from my friends and relatives who serve makes me doubt this greatly.
Why do you think the army will be succesful providing for the needs of the Chareidi soldier, when the Chardalim feel like they're getting run out of the army by successful leftist demands for full gender intigration,and has PROVEN incapable of keeping its field kitchens kosher???

We keep talking values regarding service and I'm keep saying it doesn't matter.

Let's leave at this:
If the charedim agree to join the army, and then the army cannot satisfy reasonable demands related to values, kashrut and observance, then we will agree that this is the major problem.

[yfr bachur]

We keep talking values regarding service and I'm keep saying it doesn't matter.

So this is EXACTLY the point of conflict!
You say that my values do not matter, and I must conform to your values.
I say that I value my values, and not yours, and therefore I won't do what you want...

Who is trying to force his values upon the other party??

[LongTimeLurker]

So this is EXACTLY the point of conflict!
You say that my values do not matter, and I must conform to your values.
I say that I value my values, and not yours, and therefore I won't do what you want...

Who is trying to force his values upon the other party??

I'm saying your values are selfish and not based in the real world.

[yfr bachur]

I'm saying your values are selfish and not based in the real world.

it is selfish to beleive in pragmatic solutions to staffing problems??

[LongTimeLurker]

it is selfish to beleive in pragmatic solutions to staffing problems??

In this case yes, because your overall pragmatic solution to staffing problem may instead create security problems for everyone else.
There was a fascinating survey (somewhat small sample size) done by Kann recently, where basically only the haredim view the pragmattic staffing problem as a solution. https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/politic/389753/

Basically we're at an impasse.

[bochur22]

I'm saying your values are selfish and not based in the real world.

So we can now discuss merits of our respective values? We can get into a masterclass on Judaism as a religion and the Israeli secular attitude, but I don't think that's what's wanted here

[bochur22]

I'm saying your values are selfish and not based in the real world.

Please recognize that at this point the crucial disagreement seems to be that you view our values as something of baseless backwards religious stupidity, while we view yours as unfortunately uneducated. We have a clash of values on this issue, and our solution (for this) is to leave each other to our respective values. Your solution to this problem seems to be forcing your values onto others.

[aygart]

This is great; he's in the US, right? On both sides of Israel (both from the secular academia side which makes this needlessly difficult for things like medicine) and the haredi side (good luck getting your kids into school) it's much harder.

As a rule though this doesn't work for everyone

So the issue is not one of talmud study but rather of a messed up system? Then why are you making this a reflection on talmud study when it is just the opposite?

[LongTimeLurker]

Please recognize that at this point the crucial disagreement seems to be that you view our values as something of baseless backwards religious stupidity, while we view yours as unfortunately uneducated. We have a clash of values on this issue, and our solution (for this) is to leave each other to our respective values. Your solution to this problem seems to be forcing your values onto others.

I am saying that this is not a thing of values. Somehow it keeps coming back on your side to a value play, and I'm saying that it's not, but if you want to make this a values discussion then we will , and if your values include letting others do the dirty work for you on a hashkafic level then I think, yes those values are out of work.

When the question השומר אחי אנוכי is asked it should be, why yes, yes I am.

So the issue is not one of talmud study but rather of a messed up system? Then why are you making this a reflection on talmud study when it is just the opposite?

I apologize if I made it seem like talmud study is bad. Not my intention. My point is that as a general rule the haredi education system does not teach stem and English which is a recipe for continued poverty.

My other point was that the US system, for all it's flaws, has figured out work arounds to institutional requirements in a way that Israel has not, on both sides of the table.

[bochur22]

I am saying that this is not a thing of values. Somehow it keeps coming back on your side to a value play, and I'm saying that it's not, but if you want to make this a values discussion then we will , and if your values include letting others do the dirty work for you on a hashkafic level then I think, yes those values are out of work.

You are not understanding then that this idea that we are letting others do the dirty work is only how you view it through your values. The number of assumptions that your positions are based on include (But aren't limited to):
1. Ideas of which activities are of defensive, cultural, and economic value
2. Which activity constitutes reasonable effort
3. The importance of universal service
4. The value of pure equality in drafting
(5. The extent to which service in the army can be reconciled with Chareidi priorities)
These are all things which are tilted by the views and values one has. (Maybe not number 5) That is way we are consistently saying this about differing values

[imayid2]

Very interesting:
https://jewishunpacked.com/who-should-serve-in-the-israeli-military/

[PlatinumGuy]

I have a son who did not have secular studies in high school and went to a 2 hour a week for two years program to get a GED. He is now in Pre-med. There are some subjects that he needs a little help in because of his lack of background, but nothing not overcome by simply studying the background and making the effort.

In Israel the lack of English is very detrimental. It's nearly impossible to learn a language at a later age, and very hard to make a living in Israel outside of the tech industry where English is critical.

[PlatinumGuy]

When discussing Charedi army service it's important to distinguish two reasons which are often conflated - avoiding secular influence, and the primacy of dedicating the time to Torah study.

[imayid2]

When discussing Charedi army service it's important to distinguish two reasons which are often conflated - avoiding secular influence, and the primacy of dedicating the time to Torah study.

+1
If it were only the latter there would be room for serious discussion, certainly for the guys who haven't succeeded in Yeshivah.

[ExGingi]

When the question השומר אחי אנוכי is asked it should be, why yes, yes I am. I apologize if I made it seem like talmud study is bad. Not my intention. My point is that as a general rule the haredi education system does not teach stem and English which is a recipe for continued poverty.

Wrong!

Just look at Yeshivos in the US that don't teach those either (though math is mostly acquired as part of limmudey kodesh) and look at the amount of wealth that exists in the respective communities.