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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 41726 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #220 on: June 14, 2023, 10:39:27 AM »
Oh believe me I know the context and it's still infuriating.

Ahhh messianic zionism....
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #221 on: June 14, 2023, 10:45:31 AM »
I agree with you. We're conflating army service and jobs. They are two different things.
Jobs: happy for haredim to work, happy to give them individual programs, but in certain fields they're gonna have to interact with non haredim and women (medicine etc), how does that work?
They will. They do. Have you ever seen a Hatzala member refuse to treat a member of the opposite gender?
Dr Stein (The Brisker Doctor - sees patients after three sedarim: from 10PMish to 2/3AM) treats women.
 Those who have a problem with that will opt for professions that don't have public facing roles.

Quote
Great. I pay VAT too, on top of my income tax. The fact that they pay VAT doesn't reduce the fact that they are living in subsidized poverty/
My question was does the average chareidi as an individual receive more than he contributes in taxes? (excluding calculations of does he pay his fair share of defence funding or funding new roads)

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #222 on: June 14, 2023, 10:58:30 AM »
We're not imposing values, just saying serve in the army.

Sorry, you're not getting it:
The entire idea of Mandatory Universal National Service IS a value based on certain outlooks and views about the state, security, socialistic ideas of fairness, BG perception of the army being the crucible of the "New" Israeli....

Chareidim don't value this value, and have other alternate values in its place.

Quote
Believe me if the army can make sure that the Black Hebrews get their crazy food requirements, then they can (and will) take care of hecsherim, shabbat l'humrah etc
What I hear from my friends and relatives who serve makes me doubt this greatly.
Why do you think the army will be succesful providing for the needs of the Chareidi soldier, when the Chardalim feel like they're getting run out of the army by successful leftist demands for full gender intigration,and has PROVEN incapable of keeping its field kitchens kosher???
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 11:06:06 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #223 on: June 14, 2023, 11:09:08 AM »
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #224 on: June 14, 2023, 11:14:02 AM »

My question was does the average chareidi as an individual receive more than he contributes in taxes? (excluding calculations of does he pay his fair share of defence funding or funding new roads)
And I answered, yes.


(My opinion:) We should have a first class career army, staffed by people who get the best training, and get paid a fair salary. With out the bloat of unneeded arcaic historical jobs and postions.
You need to go up thread and look at the Ofer Shelach stuff.

I have a son who did not have secular studies in high school and went to a 2 hour a week for two years program to get a GED. He is now in Pre-med. There are some subjects that he needs a little help in because of his lack of background, but nothing not overcome by simply studying the background and making the effort.
This is great; he's in the US, right? On both sides of Israel (both from the secular academia side which makes this needlessly difficult for things like medicine) and the haredi side (good luck getting your kids into school) it's much harder.

As a rule though this doesn't work for everyone

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #225 on: June 14, 2023, 11:30:46 AM »
Sorry, you're not getting it:
The entire idea of Mandatory Universal National Service IS a value based on certain outlooks and views about the state, security, socialistic ideas of fairness, BG perception of the army being the crucible of the "New" Israeli....

Chareidim don't value this value, and have other alternate values in its place.
What I hear from my friends and relatives who serve makes me doubt this greatly.
Why do you think the army will be succesful providing for the needs of the Chareidi soldier, when the Chardalim feel like they're getting run out of the army by successful leftist demands for full gender intigration,and has PROVEN incapable of keeping its field kitchens kosher???
We keep talking values regarding service and I'm keep saying it doesn't matter.

Let's leave at this:
If the charedim agree to join the army, and then the army cannot satisfy reasonable demands related to values, kashrut and observance, then we will agree that this is the major problem.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #226 on: June 14, 2023, 11:48:53 AM »
We keep talking values regarding service and I'm keep saying it doesn't matter.

So this is EXACTLY the point of conflict!
You say that my values do not matter, and I must conform to your values.
I say that I value my values, and not yours, and therefore I won't do what you want...

Who is trying to force his values upon the other party??

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #227 on: June 14, 2023, 11:49:33 AM »
So this is EXACTLY the point of conflict!
You say that my values do not matter, and I must conform to your values.
I say that I value my values, and not yours, and therefore I won't do what you want...

Who is trying to force his values upon the other party??
I'm saying your values are selfish and not based in the real world.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #228 on: June 14, 2023, 11:54:05 AM »
I'm saying your values are selfish and not based in the real world.

it is selfish to beleive in pragmatic solutions to staffing problems????????

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #229 on: June 14, 2023, 12:46:22 PM »
it is selfish to beleive in pragmatic solutions to staffing problems????????
In this case yes, because your overall pragmatic solution to staffing problem may instead create security problems for everyone else.
There was a fascinating survey (somewhat small sample size) done by Kann recently, where basically only the haredim view the pragmattic staffing problem as a solution. https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/politic/389753/

Basically we're at an impasse.

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #230 on: June 14, 2023, 01:14:28 PM »
I'm saying your values are selfish and not based in the real world.
So we can now discuss merits of our respective values? We can get into a masterclass on Judaism as a religion and the Israeli secular attitude, but I don't think that's what's wanted here

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #231 on: June 14, 2023, 01:18:37 PM »
I'm saying your values are selfish and not based in the real world.
Please recognize that at this point the crucial disagreement seems to be that you view our values as something of baseless backwards religious stupidity, while we view yours as unfortunately uneducated. We have a clash of values on this issue, and our solution (for this) is to leave each other to our respective values. Your solution to this problem seems to be forcing your values onto others.

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #232 on: June 14, 2023, 01:19:25 PM »

This is great; he's in the US, right? On both sides of Israel (both from the secular academia side which makes this needlessly difficult for things like medicine) and the haredi side (good luck getting your kids into school) it's much harder.

As a rule though this doesn't work for everyone

So the issue is not one of talmud study but rather of a messed up system? Then why are you making this a reflection on talmud study when it is just the opposite?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #233 on: June 14, 2023, 01:48:33 PM »
Please recognize that at this point the crucial disagreement seems to be that you view our values as something of baseless backwards religious stupidity, while we view yours as unfortunately uneducated. We have a clash of values on this issue, and our solution (for this) is to leave each other to our respective values. Your solution to this problem seems to be forcing your values onto others.

I am saying that this is not a thing of values. Somehow it keeps coming back on your side to a value play, and I'm saying that it's not, but if you want to make this a values discussion then we will , and if your values include letting others do the dirty work for you on a hashkafic level then I think, yes those values are out of work.

When the question השומר אחי אנוכי is asked it should be, why yes, yes I am.
So the issue is not one of talmud study but rather of a messed up system? Then why are you making this a reflection on talmud study when it is just the opposite?
I apologize if I made it seem like talmud study is bad. Not my intention. My point is that as a general rule the haredi education system does not teach stem and English which is a recipe for continued poverty.

My other point was that the US system, for all it's flaws, has figured out work arounds to institutional requirements in a way that Israel has not, on both sides of the table.

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #234 on: June 14, 2023, 01:55:10 PM »
I am saying that this is not a thing of values. Somehow it keeps coming back on your side to a value play, and I'm saying that it's not, but if you want to make this a values discussion then we will , and if your values include letting others do the dirty work for you on a hashkafic level then I think, yes those values are out of work.
You are not understanding then that this idea that we are letting others do the dirty work is only how you view it through your values. The number of assumptions that your positions are based on include (But aren't limited to):
1. Ideas of which activities are of defensive, cultural, and economic value
2. Which activity constitutes reasonable effort
3. The importance of universal service
4. The value of pure equality in drafting
(5. The extent to which service in the army can be reconciled with Chareidi priorities)
These are all things which are tilted by the views and values one has. (Maybe not number 5) That is way we are consistently saying this about differing values

Offline imayid2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #236 on: June 14, 2023, 02:52:03 PM »
I have a son who did not have secular studies in high school and went to a 2 hour a week for two years program to get a GED. He is now in Pre-med. There are some subjects that he needs a little help in because of his lack of background, but nothing not overcome by simply studying the background and making the effort.
In Israel the lack of English is very detrimental. It's nearly impossible to learn a language at a later age, and very hard to make a living in Israel outside of the tech industry where English is critical.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #237 on: June 14, 2023, 02:55:03 PM »
When discussing Charedi army service it's important to distinguish two reasons which are often conflated - avoiding secular influence, and the primacy of dedicating the time to Torah study.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #238 on: June 14, 2023, 03:01:03 PM »
When discussing Charedi army service it's important to distinguish two reasons which are often conflated - avoiding secular influence, and the primacy of dedicating the time to Torah study.
+1
If it were only the latter there would be room for serious discussion, certainly for the guys who haven't succeeded in Yeshivah.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #239 on: June 14, 2023, 05:29:33 PM »
When the question השומר אחי אנוכי is asked it should be, why yes, yes I am. I apologize if I made it seem like talmud study is bad. Not my intention. My point is that as a general rule the haredi education system does not teach stem and English which is a recipe for continued poverty.

Wrong!

Just look at Yeshivos in the US that don't teach those either (though math is mostly acquired as part of limmudey kodesh) and look at the amount of wealth that exists in the respective communities.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan