Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....

[ExGingi]

+1
If it were only the latter there would be room for serious discussion, certainly for the guys who haven't succeeded in Yeshivah.

Never forget the fact that when in the army, the פוסק אחרון is not a רב מורה הוראה but rather a commander (of varying rank, depending on situation), or worse the Israeli justice department or the supreme court. This IMHO is the #1 issue.

And while on the topic, could mods please move this discussion about service in the Israeli army to a separate thread, and keep this one about judicial reform and future of Israeli democracy.

[aygart]

If the charedim agree to join the army, and then the army cannot satisfy reasonable demands related to values, kashrut and observance, then we will agree that this is the major problem.

1. Sounds like only one side is taking the risk of the arrangement not working out.
2. There are Chareidi brigades and there have supposedly been issues.

[yfr bachur]

And while on the topic, could mods please move this discussion about service in the Israeli army to a separate thread, and keep this one about judicial reform and future of Israeli democracy.

For the chareidim, this IS the reason for the judicial reform (along with getting the HC out of judgeing against torah values in favour of hypermodern western ones)
While for the left, this IS the reason to fight the judicial reform (along with sending Bibi to prison, and stamping out all vestiges of judiasm from Israeli society)

[mevinyavin]

For the chareidim, this IS the reason for the judicial reform (along with getting the HC out of judgeing against torah values in favour of hypermodern western ones)
While for the left, this IS the reason to fight the judicial reform (along with sending Bibi to prison, and stamping out all vestiges of judiasm from Israeli society)

Perhaps. It is certainly related.

On the main thread topic. Note: written by an opponent of the reform.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-more-religious-the-more-support-analyzing-attitudes-to-the-judicial-overhaul/

[yfr bachur]

1. Sounds like only one side is taking the risk of the arrangement not working out.
2. There are Chareidi brigades and there have supposedly been issues.

Most of the chareidim I know see Nachal Hachareidi/Netzach Yehuda as PROOF against the viability of the army being able to conform itself to our values

[yfr bachur]

This is what's great about DDF
we've been able to have a calm honest revealing conversation about issues that people care deeply about, and have vastly divided veiwpoints
that in most other forums, would have long ago degraded into yelling, screaming, and leben being trown across the table...

[LongTimeLurker]

Never forget the fact that when in the army, the פוסק אחרון is not a רב מורה הוראה but rather a commander (of varying rank, depending on situation), or worse the Israeli justice department or the supreme court. This IMHO is the #1 issue.

The Israeli justice department or supreme court is not involved in issuing direct commands to some soldier doing guard duty somewhere.
But yes, this is an army with a chain of command. This is how armies work.

I'm not sure how we got on the army thread here but the whole point of the piskat hahitgabrut is to allow the knesset to pass some version of hok hagiyus so the relevancy is very real.

Wrong!

Just look at Yeshivos in the US that don't teach those either (though math is mostly acquired as part of limmudey kodesh) and look at the amount of wealth that exists in the respective communities.

We've been trying to focus on statistics as much as possible and not anecdotes, so if you can point to wealth distribution vs welfare statistics etc across those communities that would very helpful. A small number pulling up the average can confuse things.

However as I and both @PlatinumGuy have pointed out, English as a baseline is a pretty big requirement to make money in Israel.

[LongTimeLurker]

Most of the chareidim I know see Nachal Hachareidi/Netzach Yehuda as PROOF against the viability of the army being able to conform itself to our values

This has always been a problem because the battalion attracted מלכתחילה people who did not fit into their societies.

[LongTimeLurker]

For the chareidim, this IS the reason for the judicial reform (along with getting the HC out of judgeing against torah values in favour of hypermodern western ones)
While for the left, this IS the reason to fight the judicial reform (along with sending Bibi to prison, and stamping out all vestiges of judiasm from Israeli society)

I think you've taken the extreme ends of both sides and decided that this is what everyone wants. Life is more nuanced then this.

[bochur22]

This has always been a problem because the battalion attracted מלכתחילה people who did not fit into their societies.

So where do you see proof of the army being accomodating and fine if you'll admit that even the dedicated Chareidi battalions are problematic?

[bochur22]

The Israeli justice department or supreme court is not involved in issuing direct commands to some soldier doing guard duty somewhere.
But yes, this is an army with a chain of command. This is how armies work.

And since Chareidim believe that all decisions and considerations must be based in Torah, do you see how that bring us into direct conflict with the army system?

[LongTimeLurker]

So where do you see proof of the army being accomodating and fine if you'll admit that even the dedicated Chareidi battalions are problematic?

I didn't say the battalions are problematic. I said the people who end there are sometimes considered problematic by the society they came from.

Also lots of good things about שח"ר
https://www.mitgaisim.idf.il/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%99/%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%99%D7%99%D7%97%D7%95%D7%93%D7%99/%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%9C-%D7%A9%D7%97%D7%A8/#/

[bochur22]

I think you've taken the extreme ends of both sides and decided that this is what everyone wants. Life is more nuanced then this.

as @yfarbachur pointed out upthread, the basic point we are stating is that the secular population shouldn't push their values onto the Chareidim. The high court is the ultimate example of that, opining that they alone get to decide what's moral for all societies and cultures

[bochur22]

I didn't say the battalions are problematic. I said the people who end there are sometimes considered problematic by the society they came from.

The original post you were commenting on didn't mention how we view the people. He said that the way the army runs those battalions actually proves to many Chareidim that they either can't or aren't willing to accomodate
ETA:

Most of the chareidim I know see Nachal Hachareidi/Netzach Yehuda as PROOF against the viability of the army being able to conform itself to our values

[LongTimeLurker]

as @yfarbachur pointed out upthread, the basic point we are stating is that the secular population shouldn't push their values onto the Chareidim. The high court is the ultimate example of that, opining that they alone get to decide what's moral for all societies and cultures

The high court doesn't decide what's moral, it interprets law, which since the state loves to be involved in everyone's life, impacts your life. The flip side to this is hilonim ask why they have to go through the rabanut to be married or even if they didn't, still have to go through a beit din to get divorced. Or why are there no public transport (outside of Haifa) on shabbat in non haredi areas. Each side feels the same.

And since Chareidim believe that all decisions and considerations must be based in Torah, do you see how that bring us into direct conflict with the army system?

I see how it brings it pretty much into direct conflict with everything, which is the route of the issue here.

[aygart]

The high court doesn't decide what's moral, it interprets law,

This is delusional. You are not in Kansas anymore.

[LongTimeLurker]

This is delusional. You are not in Kansas anymore.

As we say in hebrew
הסבר נמק ופרט
I am not interested in talking points that you may have read in a newspaper article somewhere, I am interested in concrete decisions. The court has made countless decisions that are bad or politically oriented but that are moral is a tougher one.

[ExGingi]

This is what's great about DDF
we've been able to have a calm honest revealing conversation about issues that people care deeply about, and have vastly divided veiwpoints
that in most other forums, would have long ago degraded into yelling, screaming, and leben being trown across the table...

Just as long as you don't disagree and prove the leaders wrong. Hence my avatar.

[bochur22]

The high court doesn't decide what's moral, it interprets law, which since the state loves to be involved in everyone's life, impacts your life. The flip side to this is hilonim ask why they have to go through the rabanut to be married or even if they didn't, still have to go through a beit din to get divorced. Or why are there no public transport (outside of Haifa) on shabbat in non haredi areas. Each side feels the same.

We are saying your position is inconsistent because if you preach multicultural acceptance, then don't push your values on us. This is a discussion according to the secular worldview. Your "flip side" then gets into what our values are. That assumes that Chareidim also value multiculturalism. That's not what we are discussing.

[yfr bachur]

The high court doesn't decide what's moral, it interprets law...

Except when it decides the law is "not reasonable".
This is not the SCOTUS we're talking about, which ostensibly is evaluating whether laws are constitutional...
It's just a wild west of judges deciding which laws they like and which they can send back to the knesset to be changed, at will, with no real need to be consistant on why
Also it views the cases and through the secular values and morals system - contrary to the popular belief, there is almost no such thing as an impartial judge

The flip side to this is hilonim ask why they have to go through the rabanut to be married or even if they didn't, still have to go through a beit din to get divorced. Or why are there no public transport (outside of Haifa) on shabbat in non haredi areas. Each side feels the same.

1) The rabbanut system is a Mizrachi idea/value not a chareidi one. (There is a case to be made that it causes more problems than it solves)
2) Yes, and they want to change that too! They want their values in every sphere, status quo be d***d! If you want to open up that ball of yarn, lets...
So the secular society wants to blow up status quo agreements that are 60+ years old, all to further secular values at the expense of those with religious values... who is pushing changing values on whom?
Explain to me how it is equal, reasonable and indicative of any consitstant value for the court to rule that the police must allow and secure the pr*de parade to go through chareidi areas (as they have ruled in the past, unless i'm very much misinformed), while outlawing public funds to be spent on a cultural event aimed at the religious community that has seperate seating (most recently Afula 2021)?