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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 42009 times)

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #260 on: June 15, 2023, 10:56:38 AM »
As we say in hebrew
הסבר נמק ופרט
I am not interested in talking points that you may have read in a newspaper article somewhere, I am interested in concrete decisions.
I would like to ask that this be extended to learning more about Chareidim too

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #261 on: June 15, 2023, 11:17:46 AM »
The Israeli justice department or supreme court is not involved in issuing direct commands to some soldier doing guard duty somewhere.

True, But THEY CAN issue/set the overall priorities, policy and commands.
(Chareidi View of court:) Even if the general staff were to be willing to set up a battalion under the direction and guidance and rules of the Joint Moetzes Gedolie Hatorah of ALL chareidi groups, in short mooting all religious enviroment arguments against service,
the court could would still not be able to hold itself back from ordering it to be gender intergrated.

Offline S209

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #262 on: June 15, 2023, 11:55:51 AM »
Not sure why you say every place has tests which definitely isnít true, and these tests are completely optional not mandatory assessments.
Most (all?) Yeshivos I am familiar with have regular mandatory testing from the beginning of elementary school through at least 12th grade if not later. That effectively refutes the claim that chareidim donít learn how to take tests.

The examples subsequently given are adults subjecting themselves to additional testing after even Beis Medrash. And the majority of Chaburos in BMG have tests, I donít know about Israeli Mosdos.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #263 on: June 15, 2023, 02:59:24 PM »
+1
If it were only the latter there would be room for serious discussion, certainly for the guys who haven't succeeded in Yeshivah.
The official, publicly stated policy of Charedi leadership has always been that Charedim who are not in Yeshiva should serve in the army, which is why the Charedi parties opposed ׳חוק טל׳, which enabled Charedim to work without serving in the army.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #264 on: June 15, 2023, 03:02:02 PM »
The official, publicly stated policy of Charedi leadership has always been that Charedim who are not in Yeshiva should serve in the army
Link?

Online EliJelly

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #265 on: June 15, 2023, 03:15:06 PM »
The official, publicly stated policy of Charedi leadership has always been that Charedim who are not in Yeshiva should serve in the army

What do you mean leadership, the MK's talking on the Knesset floor or to the media, or the Gedolim they supposedly represent? Find me one mainstream Gadol saying that. (Rav Shteinman is more unclear. From a letter he wrote that it's for חייבי כריתות only and confirmed by his close people, to the initiators of nachal charedi who say he told them it's for anyone not in yeshiva.)

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #266 on: June 19, 2023, 08:23:05 AM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/372966

Quote
Show us the judicial reform plan without the bargaining chips
There is no need for the proposed legislation to include bargaining chips because there is no one in the Knesset to bargain with. Op-ed.
Dr. Aaron Lerner
Dr. Aaron Lerner
  Jun 19, 2023, 9:29 AM (GMT+3)


"The (Justice Minister Levin) did not intend for his plan to pass in its maximalist version, and he admitted that he planted many bargaining chips in it.... With the passage of time, his spirit darkened and he expressed to his interlocutors authentic frustration at the feeling that there was no one to talk to on the
other side.(Hilo Glazer Haaretz Supplement 5.5.2023

On Sunday, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu indicated that he intends to proceed with judicial reform legislation.

There is absolutely no reason to expect that the opposition will engage in a constructive dialogue, either in the Knesset Committees or on the floor of the Knesset itself. Instead, they will likely exploit whatever procedural means are at their disposal to delay the enactment of the legislation. I write "at most" because the opposition may opt to boycott the proceedings altogether for the optics.

Either way, there is no need for the proposed legislation to include bargaining chips because there is no one in the Knesset to bargain with.

I don't expect any opposition MKs to embrace the legislation if it's published now without bargaining chips.

And yes, there are Israelis who are using the protest against legislative reform as a platform to somehow bring down the government.

BUT there are many good, concerned Israeli citizens who are genuinely terrified about the judicial reform. They fear that the maximalist version, which includes the bargaining chips, is also the final version.

These normative, concerned Israeli citizens deserve the opportunity to see what the judicial reform is really all about.

I'm not naive. I don't honestly expect the media talking heads to give an honest assessment of the legislation. But they can't stop concerned citizens, and I believe there are many whose heads are not turned by noisy protests, from taking the opportunity to decide for themselves.

I believe that the ruling coalition has a moral obligation to those genuinely concerned Israeli citizens to publish, in its final form, any judicial reform legislation which it intends to unilaterally enact.

Who knows? We have been saying all along that the actual legislation will enjoy broad support.

Maybe sharing it with the public will allay the fears of many concerned Israeli citizens, thus defusing a potential crisis.

Dr. Aaron Lerner heads IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis, since 1992 providing news and analysis on the Middle East with a focus on Arab-Israeli relations
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline yfr bachur

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Offline hocker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #269 on: June 23, 2023, 07:39:02 PM »
The official, publicly stated policy of Degel Lithuanian leadership has always been that Charedim who are not in Yeshiva should serve in the army, which is why the Charedi parties opposed ׳חוק טל׳, which enabled Charedim to work without serving in the army.
FTFY

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #270 on: July 03, 2023, 03:43:14 AM »
I've done a little research just to get hard numbers on what @LongTimeLurker posted earlier, (and I long suspected)... the Israeli police are catastrophically understaffed.

The land area of the state of isreal is 21,671km2. The area of NYC is 778km2.
The total officer core of Israel police is about 35000 officers, which includes magav, yasam ect...
The total officer core of the NYPD is 36000 officers...
If you do the math, NYC has 46 officers per km2, while israel has 1.6!!

The NYPD, patroling a city that does not have the complications of jewish/palestinian relations,  (though it has less safe area) have approximately 30 times the effective force of the IP!
No wonder why this is a lawless country!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 03:47:01 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline JMHO

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #271 on: July 03, 2023, 05:53:29 AM »
I've done a little research just to get hard numbers on what @LongTimeLurker posted earlier, (and I long suspected)... the Israeli police are catastrophically understaffed.

The land area of the state of isreal is 21,671km2. The area of NYC is 778km2.
The total officer core of Israel police is about 35000 officers, which includes magav, yasam ect...
The total officer core of the NYPD is 36000 officers...
If you do the math, NYC has 46 officers per km2, while israel has 1.6!!

The NYPD, patroling a city that does not have the complications of jewish/palestinian relations,  (though it has less safe area) have approximately 30 times the effective force of the IP!
No wonder why this is a lawless country!
Apples to oranges!

How much of the land area of Israel is undeveloped (or under Arab control) and does not need active police patrol/coverage vs NYC?

How much gang crime, subways, public events, etc are in NYC and need police vs Israel?

NYPD is a bloated, unionized, compartmentalized force. Israel operates very differently....

And of course, how many of the 36k members of the NYPD are hired just to give tickets :P

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #272 on: July 03, 2023, 07:47:13 AM »
This popping up all over now.
One example:
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/373603

Quote
Coalition to advance Basic Law: Torah Study instead of Override Clause
PM Netanyahu tells coalition parties he will advance basic law, but Override Clause is off the table.

Israel National News
  Jul 3, 2023, 2:07 PM (GMT+3)

The coalition is expected to advance Basic Law: Torah Study, followed by the Draft Law, in an attempt to make it more difficult for the Supreme Court to invalidate it, Channel 12 News reported.

The bills will be advanced in the upcoming Knesset session, the report added.

According to the report, it is expected that the legislation of the two bills will satisfy the haredi parties and allow the coalition to forgo the Override Clause.

On Sunday, Kan News reported that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke with the heads of the coalition parties about the Override Clause and received a promise that a special Override Clause will be passed for the Draft Law only.

At the same time, the Prime Minister demanded that the haredi parties compromise on the general Override Clause in order to prevent the anti-government protests from increasing. Shas chairman Aryeh Deri and United Torah Judaism (UTJ) chair MK Yitzchak Goldknopf both agreed to this proposal.

However, MK Moshe Gafni, who heads the UTJ's Degel Hatorah faction, and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich (Religious Zionism) both said that the coalition agreements must be upheld and a broad Override Clause passed.

Netanyahu, however, told the pair that the issue is completely off the table.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #273 on: July 04, 2023, 04:53:16 AM »
Apples to oranges!

How much of the land area of Israel is undeveloped (or under Arab control) and does not need active police patrol/coverage vs NYC?

How much gang crime, subways, public events, etc are in NYC and need police vs Israel?

NYPD is a bloated, unionized, compartmentalized force. Israel operates very differently....

And of course, how many of the 36k members of the NYPD are hired just to give tickets :P

Honestly, how often do you see a cop when you are in Israel (aside for Magav in touristy areas of JLM)?
There was a report yesterday that the traffic police in יו"ש consists of 19 police cars. and since they are focusing on enforcement in the gush/chevron area, there is zero enforcement anywhere else.
There is plenty gang crime in israel, pleanty gheto type areas in arab cities...
The area i gave does not include the entire west bank.
"Underdevoped" areas also need policing, see the vast amounts of agricultural thefts and criminal damage that is done...
most nyc traffic agents are not considered uniformed members of the nypd.
Israel does opperate diferently, does not mean better, or more efficiant.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #274 on: July 04, 2023, 05:55:53 PM »
Honestly, how often do you see a cop when you are in Israel (aside for Magav in touristy areas of JLM)?
There was a report yesterday that the traffic police in יו"ש consists of 19 police cars. and since they are focusing on enforcement in the gush/chevron area, there is zero enforcement anywhere else.
There is plenty gang crime in israel, pleanty gheto type areas in arab cities...
The area i gave does not include the entire west bank.
"Underdevoped" areas also need policing, see the vast amounts of agricultural thefts and criminal damage that is done...
most nyc traffic agents are not considered uniformed members of the nypd.
Israel does opperate diferently, does not mean better, or more efficiant.
still apple and oranges. Land mass does not mean much. What is the population difference and there could be crime but what is the percentages?

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #275 on: July 05, 2023, 07:08:35 AM »
Warning: sarcasm.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/373714
Quote
What police could have done when the Kaplan dictators threatened Ben Gurion airport
Yesterday the police let things go out of control for hours at the airport. It did not need to happen. Op-ed.
Dr. Aaron Lerner
Dr. Aaron Lerner
  Jul 5, 2023, 8:34 AM (GMT+3)
Dr. Aaron Lerner

"We have a hundred buses already positioned at Ben Gurion Airport", the Israel Police Spokesman told reporters as he pointed at the buses, "and a YASAM force ready to keep the airport open," pointing at thirty members of Israel Police's elite YASAM unit dressed in their black uniforms with their famous no-nonsense gaze.

"We have so many other security challenges on the plate today, what with the operation in Jenin, that this is the force we can spare. So our force will have to be extremely efficient.

"We are going to follow some simple rules: step off the sidewalk and you are in a bus.

"Do anything - and I mean anything - inside the terminal and you are in a bus.

"No discussion. No second chance. Nothing.

"We have cameras positioned everywhere to document the scene so it will be relatively easy to match up this documentation with each corresponding busload of detainees.

"Each time a bus is full it will drive to the processing center we have set up. There is a staff of five officials already positioned at the processing center to process the detainees.

"We have put our cards on the table. Don't test us."

But-

"D E M O C R A T I Y A" shouted the Kaplan dictators.

"We have the right to block any road we want to.

"We have the right to close down the airport and block the ports.

"We have the right to interfere with any public and private event in the country.

"No one can stop us.

"We are D E M O C R A T I Y A .

"It doesn't matter who is hurt by our action. Our cause is of overarching importance and what ever we decide goes.

We know best.

"We don't have to waste our time coming up with novel ways to get our message across.

"Because we are D E M O C R A T I Y A ."

And then it started.

The Kaplan dictators weren't deterred because they thought it was just a bluff.

It took 15 busloads - almost 750 detainees - before the remaining Kaplan dictators left the scene.

Yes, some of the Kaplan dictators moved on to try and block roads elsewhere. But each time, the Kaplan dictators found that instead of being, at most, pulled off the road, they were detained and sent away for processing.

As the day progressed some of the detained Kaplan dictators complained on live interviews via their mobile phones: "I am here in the processing center already for hours waiting to be released. I have places to go and things to do. How can it be in a properly run country that my valuable time and plans are being interfered with by these processing delays. D E M O C R A T I Y A."
====

Of course this didn't happen.

Yes, the police have in fact used buses in the way I described in the past. But that was against protestors from the national camp.

Yesterday the police let things go out of control for hours at the airport.

Under normal circumstances literally every person approaching a Terminal 3 door gets a look over. People are stopped and checked out at the slightest suspicion.

The waves of Kaplan dictators forcing their way into Terminal 3 made this impossible.

And many of the Kaplan dictators were carrying props.

We are lucky that a team of terrorists didn't take advantage of the complete and total breakdown of security at Terminal 3.

Dr. Aaron Lernerand his late father Dr. Joseph Lerner founded the Independent Media Review and Analysis (IMRA) government accredited news organization in 1992,which provides an ongoing analysis of developments in Arab-Israeli relations.
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Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #278 on: July 11, 2023, 09:19:41 PM »
Biden respects the Israeli court system more than the American courts

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #279 on: July 12, 2023, 03:45:16 AM »
Biden respects the Israeli court system more than the American courts

-1

Biden is a puppet. He does and says as he's instructed.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan