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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 41723 times)

Offline ilherman

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #280 on: July 12, 2023, 06:48:21 AM »
I've done a little research just to get hard numbers on what @LongTimeLurker posted earlier, (and I long suspected)... the Israeli police are catastrophically understaffed.

The land area of the state of isreal is 21,671km2. The area of NYC is 778km2.
The total officer core of Israel police is about 35000 officers, which includes magav, yasam ect...
The total officer core of the NYPD is 36000 officers...
If you do the math, NYC has 46 officers per km2, while israel has 1.6!!

The NYPD, patroling a city that does not have the complications of jewish/palestinian relations,  (though it has less safe area) have approximately 30 times the effective force of the IP!
No wonder why this is a lawless country!
Next time do a little more research... As others have said, land mass means zero. The actual population in NYC is very similar to Israel. And Israel has the Military patrolling all over in addition to the Police.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #281 on: July 12, 2023, 07:09:21 AM »
Next time do a little more research... As others have said, land mass means zero. The actual population in NYC is very similar to Israel. And Israel has the Military patrolling all over in addition to the Police.
@ilherman
A. Magav is included in the police officer numbers.
B. Landmass doesn't mean "Zero". I may have been exaggerating to prove a point, but the fact is that any single officer can only respond to, (and act as a deterrence to) crime within a certain radius of his location. The fact is that a less dense population requires a higher officer count per capita than a higher density area to achieve the same level of deterrence.
For example Does Israel need the same level of EMTs as NYC? or do less dense populations increase response times to the point that you need additional trained persons to achieve equal results?

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #282 on: July 12, 2023, 10:14:34 AM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/374010

Quote
White House issues rare statement on protests in Israel
White House National Security Council spokesperson calls on Israel to "respect the right of peaceful assembly" amid protests against judicial reform.
Elad Benari
Elad Benari
  Jul 12, 2023, 1:04 AM (GMT+3)
The Biden administration on Tuesday published a rare statement in which it urged Israel to respect the right of peaceful protests, in the wake of the “Day of Disruption” by protesters who oppose the judicial reform.

"We urge authorities to protect and respect the right of peaceful assembly,” a spokesperson for the White House National Security Council said.

“It is clear there is significant debate and discussion in Israel on the proposed plan. Such debates are a healthy part of a vibrant democracy.”

The spokesperson again called for an agreed upon solution regarding the judicial reform.

Protesters demonstrated across the country beginning on Tuesday morning, with the protests continuing well into the evening hours. Over 70 protesters have been arrested.

In one of the largest demonstrations, thousands of people gathered for a protest at Ben Gurion Airport. Airport officials stated that no flights were affected by the protest.

US officials have repeatedly opined that any changes to the judicial reform in Israel should be implemented with the agreement of both the government and the opposition.

In March, Biden offered very harsh criticism of Israel, saying he is “very concerned” about the goings on in light of the judicial reform and adding, “They cannot continue down this road.”

On Monday, the outgoing US Ambassador to Israel, Thomas Nides, told The Wall Street Journal that the Biden administration is trying to stop Israel from “going off the rails” with the overhaul of its judicial system.

Nides said the planned overhaul raised questions about Israel’s democratic credentials and the US-Israeli bond, which he called “as close as family”.

I love this in particular:
Quote
“It is clear there is significant debate and discussion in Israel on the proposed plan. Such debates are a healthy part of a vibrant democracy.”
I agree, debate is healthy. So why are they not debating? Why are they simply refusing to debate and just locking up society here instead?
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #283 on: July 12, 2023, 10:54:07 AM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/374010

I love this in particular:I agree, debate is healthy. So why are they not debating? Why are they simply refusing to debate and just locking up society here instead?

Google translate "debate" to left speak:  Accept my view.

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #284 on: July 13, 2023, 07:56:48 PM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/flashes/611383

Hardline haredi faction sends Attorney General cake and letter
The Jerusalem Faction thanked Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara for her stance supporting protesters who block roads.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #285 on: July 13, 2023, 08:48:24 PM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/flashes/611383

Hardline haredi faction sends Attorney General cake and letter
The Jerusalem Faction thanked Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara for her stance supporting protesters who block roads.

I honestly don't understand how people can live there.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #286 on: July 14, 2023, 05:17:25 AM »
WSJ Op-Ed today.


Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #287 on: July 14, 2023, 05:39:53 AM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/374107

Quote
Hardline haredi faction sends Attorney General cake and letter
The Jerusalem Faction thanked Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara for her stance supporting protesters who block roads.
Itzik Brandwein
  Jul 13, 2023, 5:55 PM (GMT+3)

A cake arrived at Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara's door Thursday morning with a letter thanking her for supporting protesters.

The delivery was sent by members of the "Jerusalem Faction," a hardline anti-Zionist haredi faction best known for blocking roads to protest the arrests of draft dodgers.

On the cake was a picture depicting a police officer spraying a haredi demonstrator in the face with a "Skunk" malodorant riot-dispersal hose.

The intention of the Jerusalem Faction, whose members frequently suffer from police brutality at demonstrations, was to take a shot at the Attorney General amid her decisions that support anti-government protesters.

The letter, which was sent by "The Union for Haredi Rights," titled "Your strong stand for the freedom to demonstrate and to restrain the police," stated: "In light of your amazing enlistment for the freedom of protest, we present you with this gift from our organization. As an organization that aids victims of police brutality and the prosecution's maltreatment of protesters against the abolition of the draft exemption for yeshiva students, we thank you for your work for those protesters."

The letter, published by Hadrei Haredim, continues: "These protesters, whose only sin was to block a thoroughfare, without any violence, were still regularly subjected to police brutality, which even caused many injuries. The police brutality included, but was not limited to, spraying water with blue dye and skunk malodorant by using a water cannon directly at protesters at high pressure, spraying maloderant on protesters, including children, using a personal tank and hose, using noise machines, trampling protesters with horses, using tasers, mace, and stun grenades, wild beatings with clubs, tossing demonstrators, choking them, threats with guns, and thousands of detainees."

In addition, it stated: "The prosecution's mistreatment included but was not limited to, hundreds of indictments and requests for detention until the end of the judicial process, summoning the organizers to interrogations, authorization to stop buses on their way to demonstrations, and of course closing cases against officers in the police internal investigations department. Because of this, we were happy to hear that following a long and in-depth discussion on the issue, you concluded that the protesters, who acted lawfully and calmly, were right."

The letter concluded: "We hope that the severe injustice done to them will be fixed, an institutionalized injustice, on the part of the prosecution, the police, and the media. We thank you for expressing your stance, which corresponds with the stance of The Union for Haredi Rights."
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #288 on: July 18, 2023, 11:17:53 AM »
anyone intrested in a TR from last weeks protest @TLV?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #289 on: July 18, 2023, 03:15:40 PM »
anyone intrested in a TR from last weeks protest @TLV?

Only if it's interesting.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #290 on: July 19, 2023, 05:57:05 AM »
Only if it's interesting.
And funny. Also: No pics, didn't happen.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #291 on: July 19, 2023, 07:24:55 AM »
And funny. Also: No pics, didn't happen.

Sorry, No pics. but you can ask my kids how it was.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #292 on: July 19, 2023, 07:33:20 AM »
Sorry, No pics. but you can ask my kids how it was.

What are their DDF usernames?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #293 on: July 19, 2023, 10:16:44 AM »
Sorry, No pics. but you can ask my kids how it was.
If the TR includes quotes from your kids, I'll fargin the pictures.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #294 on: July 19, 2023, 12:57:46 PM »
If the TR includes quotes from your kids, I'll fargin the pictures.
I see thinking about leftists isn't too healthy for you
(I would write the whole thing today but i have a migraine now.)
refuah shlaima

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #295 on: July 20, 2023, 04:03:33 AM »
I see thinking about leftists isn't too healthy for you
Rabbi Berkovits once said, "If I have ever been sick in my life, it has been from watching good people get stepped on by bad people."
I guess I'm a talmid in this way, too.

PS I feel better, thanks to all the well-wishers.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline imayid2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #296 on: July 21, 2023, 10:09:56 AM »
www.israelnationalnews.com/news/374149
Imagine if the government had passed the Judicial Reform package by now.
Oh my, there would have been screaming and anarchy. Biden and Nides would have been livid. Unthinkable levels of protest would have ensued. How unthinkable?

- Maybe Ehud Barak — who has been revealed to be Meretz and not merely Labour, who has been revealed to have offered to give up the Temple Mount, who gave South Lebanon to Hezbollah to have an independent terror polity, whose funding from Jeffrey Epstein is as legion as his flights on Jeffrey Epstein’s plane and Fantasy Island — would have called for mass civil disobedience.

- Maybe protestors would have blocked off the Ayalon Highway.

- Maybe protestors even would have invaded and disrupted Ben Gurion Airport.

- Maybe protestors unbelievably would have launched a nationwide Day of Disruption, backed by the Histadrut leadership and malcontents in “hi-tech.”

Well, no, they would not do that. But let’s just say . . . .

The point is that the originalentire Judicial Reform proposal was and is reasonable, with one caveat that the proposed “Override” provision needs a bit of tweaking. It should have been passed by now. If it had been, there would have been the same exact chaos there is anyway. Israel has only one airport to close down, only one Ayalon Highway, only one Epstein-Barak inciter. The Left would have gone crazy, and the public would have become accustomed to it and started turning on the troublemakers as they have turned on “Black Lives Matter” in America. After the novelty, the mainstream public gets sick of this.

The Judicial Reform would be seen by now as perfectly in order.

The prime minister should be free to pick his attorney-general without Court interference. President Kennedy could name any attorney-general he wanted — and he picked his own brother. Obama rightly expected President George W. Bush’s A-G to submit his resignation, to be replaced with Eric Holder. President Trump rightly expected Obama’s Holder to step down, to be replaced by Jeff Sessions. When Trump became disenchanted with Sessions, he canned him and replaced him with William Barr. In America, the Court has no say. The A-G can be as “unreasonable” as the president wishes. Then the president can fire his attorney-general and pick a new one. Or Congress can impeach him or her. The Court stays out of it.

What keeps the American system “reasonable”? Not the courts but the legislature and the people. Congress can impeach an attorney-general . . . or can impeach the president who picks him or her. And the voters can throw all the bums out. Or vote to keep them around.

With Israeli Judicial Reform and an end to the wishy-washy subjective “reasonableness” standard, Baharav-Miara would have been out the day the new government began. No need for firing. She would have understood her resignation was expected, and either she submits it elegantly, like everyone else in a mature democracy, or they come in with a heavy-duty dustbuster and get her out that way.

On October 20, 1973, President Nixon ordered his attorney-general, Elliot Richardson, to fire special Watergate prosecutor Archibald Cox. Richardson would not do so, so he resigned. He knew the attorney-general serves at the pleasure of the head of government, the president. He does not impose on the president what may or may not be done legally. So Richardson did not turn to the Court. Then Nixon ordered Deputy Attorney-General, William Ruckelhaus, to fire Cox. Instead, Ruckelhaus also resigned — same understanding. So Nixon next ordered his Solicitor General, Robert Bork, to do it. And he did. The next day, the newspapers called it “The Saturday Night Massacre.” It was quite a scandal. Leon Jaworski was named to succeed Cox. A year later, Nixon was out. But the Court had no say in the matter. And justice was served democratically.

It is the same with naming any other kind of cabinet minister. In America, the president names his cabinet. The Court has no say. There is always a cabinet member or two who emerges as incompetent or corrupt. Vice President Aaron Burr killed the guy in the musical. Lincoln’s Secretary of War, Simon Cameron, resigned amid his corruption scandal. William Belknap, President Grant’s Secretary of War, resigned just before being impeached for bribery. Ezra Ayres Hayt, a high-ranking official under Rutherford Hayes, was forced to resign for corruption. Albert Fall, Pres. Harding’s Secretary of the Interior, took bribes and was convicted and imprisoned.

But the Court did not rule on his suitability for office; rather, the basic system took him down. Harding’s attorney-general, Harry Daugherty, resigned amid scandal. The lists grow longer as we get into the past five presidencies. In all the cases, the Court has no say. Congress shines a spotlight and considers impeachment. Voters weigh in, and the system works as a democracy should, without the interference of unelected judges deciding what they personally feel is “unreasonable.”

If Aryeh Deri ultimately becomes a minister, the Knesset can vote his expulsion. Or the voters can decide in four years that they prefer a government of Gantz, Lapid, Liberman, Sa’ar, Meretz, and Labor that relies on the Muslim Brotherhood for its majority. If that’s what the voters want in four years, so be it. But it is not for the Court to decide whom the prime minister “reasonably” may appoint to his cabinet.

If the government had passed all the Judicial Reform three months ago, people by now would have seen that the sky did not fall and that the whole hubbub was much ado about nothing. All the fears would have been proven unwarranted. The average Israeli today would not know the “reasonable” standard is missing because they never knew it was there. They would not mind that Baharav-Miara is gone. And so it should be with the rest of the Judicial Reform: Kick the lawyers off the judicial selection committee. Lawyers have no business selecting judges. What a “conflict of interest”!

There would be three more years until the next elections, ample time for everyone to grow increasingly accustomed to life free of judicial tyranny, and no one would remember in six months what they even were protesting about. It is as consequential as a hole in a bagel. Planes will fly. Highways will clear. The IDF will be ready. And there always is another Hamas War or Jenin to crush. Count on it.

The longer the delay in passing the reforms, the worse the whole thing festers. It becomes pus, then black mold. Fears build on both sides. The Left starts descending into utter madness, with delusions they are transported into a TV show, “The Handmaid’s Tale.” They all start dressing like Little Red Riding Hood and expect they will be forced to bear children to Nazified government ministers. They lose touch with reality. Meanwhile, across the aisle, weak links within Likud begin imagining absurd nightmare scenarios that the whole country will go under.

Nonsense. Once the government finally passes the darned thing, in its entirety, people — other than Meretz agitators and cynical politicians — will see soon enough that all the warnings were ridiculous. There will be a new chief of police who takes charge and starts treating anarchists the way previous governments have treated Haredim and those opposed to abandoning Gush Katif and Gaza to Hamas. The incompetent Tel Aviv police chief, Israel’s Inspector Clouseau, will be replaced by someone who enforces the law — a novel concept. And what does it say about that nincompoop police chief when, upon his termination, thousands of violent lawbreakers stream to the streets demanding his reinstatement?

Finally, when this chapter ends, it must never be forgotten that it was not Yair Lapid or Avigdor Liberman but Gideon Sa’ar who pushed Baharav-Miara forth. A story is told of a temple’s “High Holiday Chazan Committee.” Each week they sat through three auditions, and this was the final meeting. A candidate started singing for the committee. It was the most awful version of “Kol Nidre.” A committee member “snapped,” stood up, pulled out and cocked a handgun. The candidate with the terrible voice turned white and begged: “Please don’t shoot me.” The livid committee member responded: “I’m not going to hurt you. It’s not your fault you can’t sing. I’m gonna shoot the moron who invited you.”

I wish Sa’ar long life. But we must never forget it was he — and only he — who made Baharav-Miara attorney-general. One day, Bibi will retire. On that day, Sa’ar will try returning to Likud with Elkin and all his sycophants. Never forget that Sa’ar is not a Likud conservative. Likudniks went through this with Ariel Sharon, Tzipi Livni, Ehud Olmert, and others. Likud must never again take in such sheep in wolves’ clothing.

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #297 on: July 23, 2023, 09:31:26 AM »
NYT wrote an "earnest" op-ed today asking to stop funding to Israel. A bunch of krum reasoning mixed in with very few truths...


Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline TimT

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Offline AMH

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #299 on: July 24, 2023, 08:18:16 AM »
👆 אהבת חינם