I'm going to read this carefully before I respond fully.
I am really trying to be more or less impartial, and at least present (what I see as) the Charedi view in a way that may be palatable to non Charedim.
I have cousins that as of the last time I heard (less than a month ago) have not seen their husbands since ST. (They're combat medics)
I told a cousin of my wife's who lives in Kiryat Sefer, that he should tell his sister who was scared about her son who just signed up for Nachal Charedi - there are thousands of mothers across the country who have the same fears and she's not immune just bec she lives in KS. (more subtle, but that was the message).
I have a American friend who had no one in his Kollel for months as they were all on miluim...
What's damaging more than anything to productive conversation on the topic is the anti-sematic message that has been dripped into the Israeli body politic for years by politicians like Lapid and his forerunners - that Charedim are parasites, they're taking advantage, they steal YOUR money... its not fair...
The fact is this: The Dati population places hashgafic significance on army service - therefore they serve gladly and make do with sub-optimal religious conditions. This is in fact a central part of Mizrachi thought - trying to make as religious as possible of a bad situation vis a vi the non-observant.
The Charedi does not have ANY hashgafic value in the state as such nor service. If anything the Zionist enterprise is regarded as a destructive force. (We've been through why in this thread, and until the rest of society takes the time to find out and understand that its not just a "misunderstanding between Ben Gurion and the Chazon Ish" but deeply rooted honestly held bedrock beliefs and fundamental mistrust of the Zionists that is based on the entire history of the Charedi/Zionist interactions, much of this conversation will just be focused on the emotional pain of the anti charedi and not at all on the possible solutions and/or compromises.)
You're asking for ST to turn Gurrers into talmidim of Rav Kook, Vishnitzers into products of Har Hamaor, Ponevitzers into Bnei Akivaniks, and Talmidim of Rav Shmuel into Ben Gvir aficionados. It just doesn't work that way.
If you are going to ask them to shoulder the burden - that they dont place any value in - you are going to have to entice them to the table. (Some may NEVER come bec of hashgafic reasons. You can yell till the cows come home how it don't fit with your hashgafa what they do - but until you sit calmly and unemotionaly to understand - you wont)
(On a side note - when do the Charedim get to tell other parts of society that they need to change their lifestyle to ensure the security of the country? because a Charedi believes that certain deviant behaviors lead to a lack of Siyata Dishmaya and onshim from shomaiym...)
If you want to read something in english that xplains the sources and history of the chareidi hashgafos try The Empty Wagon. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiR7-6_jseEAxXMgf0HHUocDJ0QFnoECCAQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fjudaicapress.com%2Fproducts%2Fthe-empty-wagon&usg=AOvVaw0wZX353TxfHt12njBhAACk&opi=89978449.
It's a huge book that even I couldn't get through it all. Its very extreme (Eitz/Neturei Karta style), but a good source book...
As I mentioned in DM, I ordered the book. I will probably need to have a drink while I read it but I'll take a look.
I'll come back after and see if I have any insights.
In the meanwhile I'm taking a break from this thread.
I want to leave with one message though:
I personally have no desire to impose my way of life on someone else, the same way I don't want someone else to impose their way of life on me.
I also don't want to fund someone else's way of life, the same way I don't expect them to fund my way of life.
But, at the end of the day, that's not how any modern society works. We like to pretend we're all independent but we need everyone in order to have a healthcare system, build infrastructure, and generally live our 21st century lives (electricity, sewage, health care etc.. the basics of modern society).
There's only, what, 12-15 million Jews in the world? I realize a lot of us have many major major hashkafic differences on all sorts of issues. I don't expect them to ever get solved, certainly not in a way that would make both sides happy. I do hope that we all learn to be a little bit more flexible, on both sides, especially in Israel. It's ok to have gender separate events, and it's ok to have mixed events. It's ok to have separate army units for Haredim so their needs are accepted and more of them can enlist, and it's ok for women to be fighter pilots (I have different thoughts on certain combatant roles but that's another thread).
It's ok to have mass transit in some places in Shabbat, but let's make sure not to shove it in the faces of areas that are mostly shomer shabbat.
You get the idea, although you might not agree.
Finally, at the end of the day, I am a zionist and realist. I never thought Israel was ראשית צמחית גאולתינו because I don't understand why someone gets to declare that. As a zionist, I firmly believe that the modern State of Israel, for all its many flaws, is the modern incarnation of the Jewish Homeland and we need to make the best of it. I have the option of living elsewhere; but this is my home.
As a realist, I realize there are significant minority of Jews who don't believe that, but still live here, and we have to find a meaningful way to coexist. What that looks like, I don't know, but we need to find out soon.
and, to finish like the politician I am not
מפה אני רוצה להתפלל לרפואת הפצועים, להשבת כל החטופים, להשמדת מוחלטת של אויבינו בכל מקום שהם, ולנצחון של כל כוחות בטחון ולמנהיגים שהם יותר ראויים לעם הנפלא שלנו
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