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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 41725 times)

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #400 on: February 26, 2024, 03:04:25 AM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/385815
among other things
Quote
A senior officer told Yediot Aharonot that, "In order to bring 'masses' of haredim, we will need flexibility on the part of the army and Israeli society on the matter of women's integration. If we keep banging heads against the wall, it simply will not happen.

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #401 on: February 26, 2024, 03:39:49 AM »
Does this mean that you are backing off of this statement?
Until now, your argument was that the army can fit in with their beliefs. Now you're saying too bad even though it doesn't fit into your beliefs. So your whole argument before was disingenuous?
I do think the army can fit in their beliefs. Nahal Haredi as a rule was purpose built for this, and has a bad name ONLY because of who ended up enlisting there. But the battalion was built from the ground up to cater to the Haredi population.

I am also saying that at this point in time, given the situation, all sides need to be a little more flexible. I have a lot of Haredi friends (they use Generators on Shabbat, that's how Haredi) and believe me when they need to be they can also be flexible.

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #402 on: February 26, 2024, 03:53:08 AM »
I'm going to read this carefully before I respond fully.
I am really trying to be more or less impartial, and at least present (what I see as) the Charedi view in a way that may be palatable to non Charedim.
I have cousins that as of the last time I heard (less than a month ago) have not seen their husbands since ST. (They're combat medics)
I told a cousin of my wife's who lives in Kiryat Sefer, that he should tell his sister who was scared about her son who just signed up for Nachal Charedi - there are thousands of mothers across the country who have the same fears and she's not immune just bec she lives in KS. (more subtle, but that was the message).
I have a American friend who had no one in his Kollel for months as they were all on miluim...
What's damaging more than anything to productive conversation on the topic is the anti-sematic message that has been dripped into the Israeli body politic for years by politicians like Lapid and his forerunners - that Charedim are parasites, they're taking advantage, they steal YOUR money... its not fair...

The fact is this: The Dati population places hashgafic significance on army service - therefore they serve gladly and make do with sub-optimal religious conditions. This is in fact a central part of Mizrachi thought - trying to make as religious as possible of a bad situation vis a vi the non-observant.
The Charedi does not have ANY hashgafic value in the state as such nor service. If anything the Zionist enterprise is regarded as a destructive force. (We've been through why in this thread, and until the rest of society takes the time to find out and understand that its not just a "misunderstanding between Ben Gurion and the Chazon Ish" but deeply rooted honestly held bedrock beliefs and fundamental mistrust of the Zionists that is based on the entire history of the Charedi/Zionist interactions, much of this conversation will just be focused on the emotional pain of the anti charedi and not at all on the possible solutions and/or compromises.)
You're asking for ST to turn Gurrers into talmidim of Rav Kook, Vishnitzers into products of Har Hamaor, Ponevitzers into Bnei Akivaniks, and Talmidim of Rav Shmuel into Ben Gvir aficionados. It just doesn't work that way.
If you are going to ask them to shoulder the burden - that they dont place any value in - you are going to have to entice them to the table. (Some may NEVER come bec of hashgafic reasons. You can yell till the cows come home how it don't fit with your hashgafa what they do - but until you sit calmly and unemotionaly to understand - you wont)

(On a side note - when do the Charedim get to tell other parts of society that they need to change their lifestyle to ensure the security of the country? because a Charedi believes that certain deviant behaviors lead to a lack of Siyata Dishmaya and onshim from shomaiym...)

If you want to read something in english that xplains the sources and history of the chareidi hashgafos try The Empty Wagon. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiR7-6_jseEAxXMgf0HHUocDJ0QFnoECCAQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fjudaicapress.com%2Fproducts%2Fthe-empty-wagon&usg=AOvVaw0wZX353TxfHt12njBhAACk&opi=89978449.
It's a huge book that even I couldn't get through it all. Its very extreme (Eitz/Neturei Karta style), but a good source book...

As I mentioned in DM, I ordered the book. I will probably need to have a drink while I read it but I'll take a look.
I'll come back after and see if I have any insights.
In the meanwhile I'm taking a break from this thread.

I want to leave with one message though:
I personally have no desire to impose my way of life on someone else, the same way I don't want someone else to impose their way of life on me.
I also don't want to fund someone else's way of life, the same way I don't expect them to fund my way of life.

But, at the end of the day, that's not how any modern society works. We like to pretend we're all independent but we need everyone in order to have a healthcare system, build infrastructure, and generally live our 21st century lives (electricity, sewage, health care etc.. the basics of modern society).

 There's only, what, 12-15 million Jews in the world? I realize a lot of us have many major major hashkafic differences on all sorts of issues. I don't expect them to ever get solved, certainly not in a way that would make both sides happy. I do hope that we all learn to be a little bit more flexible, on both sides, especially in Israel. It's ok to have gender separate events, and it's ok to have mixed events. It's ok to have separate army units for Haredim so their needs are accepted and more of them can enlist, and it's ok for women to be fighter pilots (I have different thoughts on certain combatant roles but that's another thread).

It's ok to have mass transit in some places in Shabbat, but let's make sure not to shove it in the faces of areas that are mostly shomer shabbat.

You get the idea, although you might not agree.

Finally, at the end of the day, I am a zionist and realist. I never thought Israel was ראשית צמחית גאולתינו because I don't understand why someone gets to declare that. As a zionist, I firmly believe that the modern State of Israel, for all its many flaws, is the modern incarnation of the Jewish Homeland and we need to make the best of it. I have the option of living elsewhere; but this is my home.

 As a realist, I realize there are significant minority of Jews who don't believe that, but still live here, and we have to find a meaningful way to coexist. What that looks like, I don't know, but we need to find out soon.

and, to finish like the politician I am not
מפה אני רוצה להתפלל לרפואת הפצועים, להשבת כל החטופים, להשמדת מוחלטת של אויבינו בכל מקום שהם, ולנצחון של כל כוחות בטחון ולמנהיגים שהם יותר ראויים לעם הנפלא שלנו
« Last Edit: February 26, 2024, 03:57:37 AM by LongTimeLurker »

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #403 on: February 26, 2024, 09:49:39 AM »


I do think the army can fit in their beliefs. Nahal Haredi as a rule was purpose built for this, and has a bad name ONLY because of who ended up enlisting there. But the battalion was built from the ground up to cater to the Haredi population.

I am also saying that at this point in time, given the situation, all sides need to be a little more flexible. I have a lot of Haredi friends (they use Generators on Shabbat, that's how Haredi) and believe me when they need to be they can also be flexible.

I will disagree that it is only because of who went there as has been demonstrated by many posts above about various different specific issues. On the other hand, I absolutely agree with you that there is a lot of progress that could be made if both sides would be more flexible, what is most likely the fatal flaw of the nachal chareidi is that they built it from the ground up to cater to the on their own terms. Either way, the real issue here is that neither side has any real interest in the issue. Actually getting solved. The chreidim definitely don't have serious interest in everyone starting army service. The army doesn't have serious interest in bending their rules and making a whole new system for them either.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #404 on: February 26, 2024, 09:55:17 AM »
I do think the army can fit in their beliefs. Nahal Haredi as a rule was purpose built for this, and has a bad name ONLY because of who ended up enlisting there. But the battalion was built from the ground up to cater to the Haredi population.

I am also saying that at this point in time, given the situation, all sides need to be a little more flexible. I have a lot of Haredi friends (they use Generators on Shabbat, that's how Haredi) and believe me when they need to be they can also be flexible.
is nahal exempt from the bagatz diktats on women's integration?

Offline Definitions2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #405 on: February 26, 2024, 10:17:31 AM »
is nahal exempt from the bagatz diktats on women's integration?
The first time I saw bagatz I thought it was a typo. The second time I said maybe maybe it's a typo. Now I see it's not.
What/who is bagatz?

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #406 on: February 26, 2024, 10:20:21 AM »
The first time I saw bagatz I thought it was a typo. The second time I said maybe maybe it's a typo. Now I see it's not.
What/who is bagatz?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Israel

When ruling as the High Court of Justice (Hebrew: בֵּית מִשְׁפָּט גָּבוֹהַּ לְצֶדֶק, Beit Mishpat Gavo'ah LeTzedek; also known as its acronym Bagatz, בג"ץ), the court rules on the legality of decisions of State authorities: government decisions, those of local authorities and other bodies and persons performing public functions under the law, and direct challenges to the constitutionality of laws enacted by the Knesset. The court may review actions by state authorities outside of Israel.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #407 on: February 26, 2024, 11:28:08 AM »


Can't say I agree with everything you wrote but I appreciate your level headedness and common sense, not so common today.

Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #408 on: February 26, 2024, 01:18:07 PM »


It's ok to have mass transit in some places in Shabbat,

As a zionist, I firmly believe that the modern State of Israel, for all its many flaws, is the modern incarnation of the Jewish Homeland

And Tel Aviv would be the perfect capital city of your utopia ::)

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #409 on: February 26, 2024, 02:07:39 PM »
And Tel Aviv would be the perfect capital city of your utopia ::)
I didn't see him calling it a utopia, quite the opposite

Offline Yef

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #410 on: February 26, 2024, 04:03:21 PM »
Hereís the thing: even if they created this perfect scenario for chareidim, it will still be a nonstarter.
The chareidi outlook is, the whole reason we are in this world is to become ehrilch torah yidden. This happens by having your formulative years in yeshiva with chosheve people shaping your worldview for the rest of your life( on top of at home chinch, of course)
There is no way the chareidi system is going to let there bochurim serve those years in the army and not in yeshiva. Not for anything. Even if itís the best Kashrus, no girls etc

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #411 on: February 26, 2024, 04:23:34 PM »
Hereís the thing: even if they created this perfect scenario for chareidim, it will still be a nonstarter.
The chareidi outlook is, the whole reason we are in this world is to become ehrilch torah yidden. This happens by having your formulative years in yeshiva with chosheve people shaping your worldview for the rest of your life( on top of at home chinch, of course)
There is no way the chareidi system is going to let there bochurim serve those years in the army and not in yeshiva. Not for anything. Even if itís the best Kashrus, no girls etc

Even in that case there can be what to discuss. There are plenty of bachurim and young married guys who aren't in yeshiva all day anyhow for various reasons. If they would go to the army  instead of creating a bogus status for them pretending that they are in yeshiva all day then it would go a long way towards solving the problem.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #412 on: February 26, 2024, 04:57:35 PM »
Hereís the thing: even if they created this perfect scenario for chareidim, it will still be a nonstarter.
The chareidi outlook is, the whole reason we are in this world is to become ehrilch torah yidden. This happens by having your formulative years in yeshiva with chosheve people shaping your worldview for the rest of your life( on top of at home chinch, of course)
There is no way the chareidi system is going to let there bochurim serve those years in the army and not in yeshiva. Not for anything. Even if itís the best Kashrus, no girls etc
so instead of at 18 they'd go 5 years later, after marriage

Offline imayid2

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Offline yitzgar

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #414 on: March 14, 2024, 08:16:48 AM »
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2268999/historic-changes-for-the-1st-time-gedolim-agree-to-quotas-targets-for-new-draft-law.html
Something doesn't make sense. If it's only for those not learning, how can penalties be imposed on yeshivas that don't comply? The yeshivas should have nothing to do with it.

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #415 on: March 14, 2024, 01:42:22 PM »
Something doesn't make sense. If it's only for those not learning, how can penalties be imposed on yeshivas that don't comply? The yeshivas should have nothing to do with it.
It's YWN. Of course it doesn't make sense...

Offline ExGingi

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I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #417 on: March 17, 2024, 08:52:08 PM »
WOW!!!

With 0 shame a major left-wing thinker (and prior MK) lets out the truth!!!


https://x.com/GadiTaub1/status/1769373028423512406?s=20


https://x.com/RandyEBarnett/status/1769072629627957486?s=20
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #418 on: March 17, 2024, 09:08:36 PM »
WOW!!!

With 0 shame a major left-wing thinker (and prior MK) lets out the truth!!!


https://x.com/GadiTaub1/status/1769373028423512406?s=20


https://x.com/RandyEBarnett/status/1769072629627957486?s=20
donít know who she is. But she seems somewhat right center these days after simchas Torah.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #419 on: March 17, 2024, 09:35:48 PM »
donít know who she is. But she seems somewhat right center these days after simchas Torah.

She is an ardent Zionist.

She's been campaigning all over saying that UNRWA is the problem. I've quoted her a few times. She's kind of the old-school Israeli left-wing (that established the country).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan