Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....

[atwnsw]

Given today's headlines that Netenyahu just fired the Defense Minister, I would appreciate your insight in understanding why Judicial Reform is so important that it is tearing apart the fabric of a democratic society (for which there are relatively few in the world).  I watch this wondering if our country is next.

Netenyahu has always be a hawk when it comes to the defense of Israel, but it seems that his actions are weakening the country's military.  Is it an act of self preservation that is motivating his actions?  Why is he and his party so determined to weaken the judicial powers?

I would appreciate an education from both sides.

Thanks

[zh cohen]

I have not been following closely, but the army (or some of its members) trying to force their view upon the elected government is the very definition of a coup.

[Definitions]

I'm trying to figure out why it seems that frum people are in support of the change and nonfrum aren't.

[zh cohen]

I'm trying to figure out why it seems that frum people are in support of the change and nonfrum aren't.

Because the Supreme Court consistently makes decisions that non-frum people like and Frum people don't.

[S209]

Because the Supreme Court consistently makes decisions that non-frum people like and Frum people don't.

That’s a pretty large generalization of non-frum, I think support among the secular public is somewhat split if skewed to against it. Frum are definitely by and large for it.

[zh cohen]

That’s a pretty large generalization of non-frum, I think support among the secular public is somewhat split if skewed to against it.

Right, I meant the non-frum people who are opposed to the reforms is (largely) because they like the results they get from the SC.

[yitzgar]

Given today's headlines that Netenyahu just fired the Defense Minister, I would appreciate your insight in understanding why Judicial Reform is so important that it is tearing apart the fabric of a democratic society (for which there are relatively few in the world).  I watch this wondering if our country is next.

Netenyahu has always be a hawk when it comes to the defense of Israel, but it seems that his actions are weakening the country's military.  Is it an act of self preservation that is motivating his actions?  Why is he and his party so determined to weaken the judicial powers?

I would appreciate an education from both sides.

Thanks

The problem is that the courts in Israel have much more power than, say, the courts in the US. The equivalent here would be if the supreme Court were a third house of Congress that all legislation has to pass through in order to become law.

[Proisrael]

Given today's headlines that Netenyahu just fired the Defense Minister, I would appreciate your insight in understanding why Judicial Reform is so important that it is tearing apart the fabric of a democratic society (for which there are relatively few in the world).  I watch this wondering if our country is next.

Netenyahu has always be a hawk when it comes to the defense of Israel, but it seems that his actions are weakening the country's military.  Is it an act of self preservation that is motivating his actions?  Why is he and his party so determined to weaken the judicial powers?

I would appreciate an education from both sides.

Thanks

Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.

[Sam 77]

Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.

Will it pass? And if yes when?

[Proisrael]

Will it pass? And if yes when?

At this point the most likely outcome is a pause in pushing for the change. The left is horrible at everything except for protests. They are masters of it. So basically the 200,000 people will shut the country of 9,000,000 and force new elections. We shall see if the right just gives up and stays home from voting or they come out in force like the last election.....but I dont see the legislation passing at this point.

[LongTimeLurker]

I'm trying to figure out why it seems that frum people are in support of the change and nonfrum aren't.

I don't know about all frum people but the haredi parties need the reform passed, specifically the part about the knesset can override supreme court cancelling laws, so they can repass the law that allows them not to do army service. Otherwise the court will once again over rule it.

The country is reaching a boiling point, but I wish people weren't using their army reserve duty as leverage. But hey it turns out that if 20% of the population does 80% of the work (per pareto's law), and some large amount of that 20% says they've had enough, then you have to listen to them.


This is an extraordinarily complex topic.
Israel does not have a constitution, it does not have 3 separate branches of government, and it doesn't have the british culture or history of it's not done.

[mevinyavin]

This is an extraordinarily complex topic.
Israel does not have a constitution, it does not have 3 separate branches of government, and it doesn't have the british culture or history of it's not done.

+1
Also, there are a bunch of great posts in the Peace in the Middle East threads and also in the Israeli Election thread on this topic.
It is worth noting that most of the opposition has been vocal about the need for Supreme Court reforms. They are protesting now because the right is doing it and not them. In fact, there is a lot of hypocrisy going around - just like the hypocrisy shown by many Supreme Court rulings in the past.

[PlatinumGuy]

כל דאלים גבר

[dovy2]

In 2005, after a full year of serious protests, the disengagement, with more than half of Israel opposing, still went ahead.
Why is the government caving in?!

[Yonah]

Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.

This was a great, and relatively objective explanation @Proisrael - thanks!

[Yonah]

In 2005, after a full year of serious protests, the disengagement, with more than half of Israel opposing, still went ahead.
Why is the government caving in?!

Also a good question, my guess is for feat that the government will fall apart.

[ilherman]

From the way the left is protesting, you can think that we are talking about a law something like להשמיד להרוג ולאבד את כל היהודים....

Insane how the left is afraid of losing decades of power...

[Pony]

But hey it turns out that if 20% of the population does 80% of the work (per pareto's law), and some large amount of that 20% says they've had enough, then you have to listen to them.

Am I the only one that finds this line a bit offensive?

[CountValentine]

Have no idea what this is about but MSM is showing some big protests going on.

[EliJelly]

Have no idea what this is about but MSM is showing some big protests going on.

Basically the protesters view the American judiciary system as a dictatorship and want to avoid that system being replicated in Israel so it stays a democracy.