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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 45028 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #121 on: April 02, 2023, 01:16:55 PM »
https://rumble.com/v2futyo-147565104.html

Very interesting talk.  Can anyone explain what he was referring to about the Law of Return being de facto repealed?
I'm trying to understand how much of his talk was spin and exaggeration, and how much was grounded in reality.

Have to admit, it's a real struggle trying to figure this "situation" out (despite the first impressions my posts might give off).  I think a big part of the issue is the lack of confidence in the elected officials leading it.  Some of these other laws they're trying to pass are nonsensical or downright corrupt in my opinion, which is unfortunate, since it really undermines all the rest.

And to the previous poster about Torah observant Jews being ridiculed or belittled in the army: I truly did not experience that on a first-hand basis.  In fact, I was in a male-only religious squad in officers' school, and we were highly respected.  I would objectively say we were the top performers across the board compared to the other mixed-gender squads (and as much as I hate to admit it, I guess that kind of proves some of your points in a casual way).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2023, 01:21:50 PM by moe8555 »

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #122 on: April 02, 2023, 06:33:16 PM »
I think everyone, regardless of stance, can agree that abolishing the draft is not on the table in the foreseeable future.  For discussions to be relevant and grounded in reality, that point has to kept in mind as the base case.  Proposed solutions need to be based around this concept.  How does that affect your thoughts about what's in store for the future viability of the country?  I think there is plenty of room for creative solutions.  Someone posted above a long list of organizations that Haredi people tend to participate in (Yad L'Sarah, Hatzola, etc.).  Is there a reason active, voluntary participation for a certain duration of time couldn't be recognized by society as equivalent to completing "mandatory" service?  I don't see why not!  When there is enough goodwill, it is possible to reach a solution.

I will respond with two seperate lines/ways of response
1)
Quote
I think everyone, regardless of stance, can agree that to the vast majority of chareidi society, participation in the draft, any other mandatory national service or widespread participation in "voluntary" national service is not on the table in the foreseeable future. For discussions to be relevant and grounded in reality, that point has to kept in mind as the base case.  Proposed solutions need to be based around this concept.

We will go round and round in circles, but until the pro universal draft (left or right) understand that for many many reasons, the chareidim:
A) don't value "national service" the way you do.
B) for justified reasons (that you may not know of, understand, or choose to consider), the chareidi society has deeprooted distrust of the government and their values and agendas.
C) For ideological reasons, There are large segments of Chareidi Society that will not do anything the govt mandates.
D) ....
then there is no way to have a open negotiation

2) As a thought experiment, lets sees how this gos.
Any service for women is even more of a nonstarter than man. So thats 50% of the Chareid pop out. (the chazon ish held itz avezrayhu for a girl to be under the authority of anyone other than her father or husband. Non starter, the state will burn worse than you saw the leftists do last week if you try to force/suggest it. If you can't accept/understand this... )
ok so just boys then
So who decides what percentage participation is sufficent to be considered "equal"? What percentage of the unequal (until now) "army servers" complaints do we have to satisfy? There are definitly politicians who would not be happy with less than 100% charedi service.

Which bachurim exactly? In which orgs? doing what? for how long? how often? how many hours a day?
If you think that the chareidi society would go for anything other than the gedolim deciding these questions, you're fooling yourself, and I'm not going to fool myself that the complainers would go for the gedolim being in charge.

So you open "voluntary" national service tracks, and some small percentage of chareidim join. What now? You happy that we can theoreticaly join recognized volunteer orgs?
Why go through the effort of recognizing some org as being equivilent to serving in the army, when you will complain that the participation rate is too low?

("YOU" doesn't mean you personaly)

(a third answer)
I think that you should have the goodwill to consider voluntary Yeshiva study as equal to mandatory military service.
Why not? I believe that the spiritual benifits (ZECHUSIM) that the mass study of the torah brings to the nation is far more important to the national security than the military service. - אם ד' לא שמר עיר....
Even if you don't believe it, it's at least as important as the job the most recent prime minister held  :)
Anyway this whole equality thing is stupid. The guy who's army jobs is to be a musician has "shivyon banetel" with the combat troops??

And to the previous poster about Torah observant Jews being ridiculed or belittled in the army: I truly did not experience that on a first-hand basis.  In fact, I was in a male-only religious squad in officers' school, and we were highly respected.  I would objectively say we were the top performers across the board compared to the other mixed-gender squads (and as much as I hate to admit it, I guess that kind of proves some of your points in a casual way).

Let me guess. You didn't learn in Nachlas, or Bais Matis or anyone of the other chareidi Yeshiva Gedolos? What about Grodna?
You come from wherever you come from, which is fine, (and I'm not going to start guessing if you're from Jlm, RBS or KCBD or Raanana...) and I respect you for your service, but I wouldn't think that your experience could be a data point for the prospective experiences of the average chareidi yeshiva bachur.

As an aside, what was your level of contact with the "mixed gender squads"? Weekly contact? Daily? I'll assume that Male only means that the barracks were seperate, but what about the mess? the classrooms? The in feild training? Did you ever have problems with Kol Isha? Seeing women not properly dressed?
Without being a Rabanut apologist, What was with kashrus? davening? how many hours did you have to learn each day?
Was shmiras shabbos a priorty of the commanding officers or did they rely on kulas alot too much?

Do you think that the average chareidi person would regard the overall situation as being a place that he should be?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2023, 06:45:11 PM by yfr bachur »

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #123 on: April 17, 2023, 03:05:02 AM »
now i've let the arguments about the draft stew for a few days...

Summary:
I (@yfr bachur) and others presented the view that the left should listen to it's own slogans and apply them to the draft where the majority tyrannizing the minority. (using this to explain why there must be a reform in the judicial system). The abolition of the draft was proposed as a solution for the unfairness of segments of the population getting an exemption.

@moe8555 presenting the view of those in favour of a universal draft or national service, and the argument that it is unsustainable for the country for only a segment of the population to "share in the burden". The total revocation of mandatory service was dismissed as not a viable proposal. (and therefore the SC is in fact, in step and in line...)


Yesterday reports surfaced of that the finance minister (who comes from a segment that places supreme value on army service) was proposing new draft laws that would lower the draft exemption age to 21 for yeshiva students (in effect recognizing yeshiva study as national service) shorten non combat service to two years, and provide financial incentives for extended combat roles.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/370060

The anti-right, anti-Bibi, anti-reform, anti-religious politicians immediately responded "universal draft or national service".
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/370063

If they, with the support of the court get their way, how is this not the majority tyrannizing the minority?

 

Offline moe8555

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #124 on: April 17, 2023, 03:24:06 AM »
I'm still worried it would just be a bandaid, even if one that stays on for a relatively long time.  But if it results in far greater economic participation (as suggested here in these forums), then I guess it's a step in the right direction?  Thoughts? Someone mentioned before that even something like this wouldn't be acceptable (unless endorsed by the gadolim) if I understood properly?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #125 on: May 04, 2023, 12:31:21 PM »
Angel Bakery is being boycotted after an extreme left politician Omer Bar-Lev who was recently named Chairman of the Board participate in a demonstration next to the house of R Gershon Edelstein.

Escalating fast and furious.

https://twitter.com/ariel_elharar_/status/1654126100057051138
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #126 on: May 04, 2023, 02:23:06 PM »
Angel Bakery is being boycotted after an extreme left politician Omer Bar-Lev who was recently named Chairman of the Board participate in a demonstration next to the house of R Gershon Edelstein.

Escalating fast and furious.


https://twitter.com/ishivri/status/1654179273639378947?s=20

https://twitter.com/ABKO319/status/1654143160199569409?s=20

https://twitter.com/agent_smiley005/status/1654179759092318218?s=20
« Last Edit: May 04, 2023, 03:18:42 PM by ExGingi »
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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #128 on: June 05, 2023, 03:00:41 PM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #129 on: June 09, 2023, 03:27:59 AM »

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #130 on: June 09, 2023, 08:07:31 AM »
I will respond with two seperate lines/ways of response
1)
We will go round and round in circles, but until the pro universal draft (left or right) understand that for many many reasons, the chareidim:
A) don't value "national service" the way you do.
B) for justified reasons (that you may not know of, understand, or choose to consider), the chareidi society has deeprooted distrust of the government and their values and agendas.
C) For ideological reasons, There are large segments of Chareidi Society that will not do anything the govt mandates.
D) ....
then there is no way to have a open negotiation

2) As a thought experiment, lets sees how this gos.
Any service for women is even more of a nonstarter than man. So thats 50% of the Chareid pop out. (the chazon ish held itz avezrayhu for a girl to be under the authority of anyone other than her father or husband. Non starter, the state will burn worse than you saw the leftists do last week if you try to force/suggest it. If you can't accept/understand this... )
ok so just boys then
So who decides what percentage participation is sufficent to be considered "equal"? What percentage of the unequal (until now) "army servers" complaints do we have to satisfy? There are definitly politicians who would not be happy with less than 100% charedi service.

Which bachurim exactly? In which orgs? doing what? for how long? how often? how many hours a day?


As an aside, what was your level of contact with the "mixed gender squads"? Weekly contact? Daily? I'll assume that Male only means that the barracks were seperate, but what about the mess? the classrooms? The in feild training? Did you ever have problems with Kol Isha? Seeing women not properly dressed?
Without being a Rabanut apologist, What was with kashrus? davening? how many hours did you have to learn each day?
Was shmiras shabbos a priorty of the commanding officers or did they rely on kulas alot too much?

Do you think that the average chareidi person would regard the overall situation as being a place that he should be?

I have thought long and hard about this and over the years gone back and forth on how I think about this. I like to keep some anonymity but I spent a fairly long time in the IDF in combat and combat related roles, including as an officer.

My current thinking is this, I'll start with the part you won't like and then elaborate:

It doesn't really matter what you think or what offends your religious sensibilities. Either all the jews serve or none of the jews serve. That's the hard truth. The agreement made between Ben Gurion and the Hazon Ish was for a much smaller group of people and was never meant to reach the situation it's at now.

Now, the army doesn't need everyone, secular or religious, but I don't think it can afford to give up on the draft and access to human talent it wouldn't have otherwise.

Everyone needs to go through the great army sifter. Service overall needs to be shortened for many of the roles , and higher compensation for longer roles.

Those who the army doesn't need can go elsewhere. The fire service, the ambulance service, truck driving school, riot police etc There are many sectors that use a lot of arab labor that will not be available when they riot again.

But if you want to live here, you've gotta serve. I used to be in favor of just letting haredim go to work at age 18 but I recently changed my mind. It doesn't work.





Offline imayid2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #131 on: June 09, 2023, 08:42:09 AM »
I have thought long and hard about this and over the years gone back and forth on how I think about this. I like to keep some anonymity but I spent a fairly long time in the IDF in combat and combat related roles, including as an officer.

My current thinking is this, I'll start with the part you won't like and then elaborate:

It doesn't really matter what you think or what offends your religious sensibilities. Either all the jews serve or none of the jews serve. That's the hard truth. The agreement made between Ben Gurion and the Hazon Ish was for a much smaller group of people and was never meant to reach the situation it's at now.

Now, the army doesn't need everyone, secular or religious, but I don't think it can afford to give up on the draft and access to human talent it wouldn't have otherwise.

Everyone needs to go through the great army sifter. Service overall needs to be shortened for many of the roles , and higher compensation for longer roles.

Those who the army doesn't need can go elsewhere. The fire service, the ambulance service, truck driving school, riot police etc There are many sectors that use a lot of arab labor that will not be available when they riot again.

But if you want to live here, you've gotta serve. I used to be in favor of just letting haredim go to work at age 18 but I recently changed my mind. It doesn't work.
Is the army experiencing a shortage of personnel?

On what are you basing this assessment on?
t I don't think it can afford to give up on the draft and access to human talent it wouldn't have otherwise.

In your experience, is there an anti religious element to the army? Do you disagree that that the current setup would cause be detrimental to the type of religious life Chareidim aspire to lead?

Offline yelped

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #132 on: June 09, 2023, 09:30:25 AM »
In your experience, is there an anti religious element to the army? Do you disagree that that the current setup would cause be detrimental to the type of religious life Chareidim aspire to lead?
I don't think he is saying that there aren't major issues currently that would have to be resolved. He is just saying that philosophically and practically all Jews would have to serve.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #133 on: June 09, 2023, 09:52:16 AM »
I don't think he is saying that there aren't major issues currently that would have to be resolved. He is just saying that philosophically and practically all Jews would have to serve.
I think there would be what to discuss if there was a religious army. So that’s on the philosophical level. Practically it’s not happening any time soon. הלואי.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #134 on: June 09, 2023, 12:54:21 PM »

Offline bochur22

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2023, 04:35:49 AM »
It doesn't really matter what you think or what offends your religious sensibilities. Either all the jews serve or none of the jews serve. That's the hard truth.
Isn't this saying that Your thoughts and Your "Hard Truth" is truer than my "Religious sensibilities"?
What sets the irreligious population up as the arbiters of truth? If Chareidim believe that their Torah study protects the nation as much (or more than) service in the army, why does it really not matter what they think? UNLESS the point you mean to make is " In my value system, It doesn't really matter what you think or what offends your religious sensibilities. Either all the jews serve or none of the jews serve. That's the hard truth. "
Which is probably the point being made by @yfarbachur that until the pro-drafters understand that we are running on different values, progress on this issue is basically impossible

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #136 on: June 11, 2023, 05:27:05 AM »
Is the army experiencing a shortage of personnel?

On what are you basing this assessment on?
This is an extremely complex question, which has a lot of nuance to it.
Do I think the regular army currently has manpower issues? functionally, yes, because there are plenty of places where they don't have enough forces but they don't want to admit it. The police are extremely understaffed.

But my larger point is that there is an entire body of service, not just the army, that needs to be trained for major disasters and emergencies. I think that some sort of 1-2 year service and then reserves of a week or two a year across a wide variety of areas (Disaster relief, fire fighting, police and a million other things).

Much of the army has been outsourced, and that problem became obvious in Shomer HaHomot when a lot of Arab truck and bus drivers didn't want to show up to move people and things for the Army and Police. I'm totally ok with doing service of say a year-year and a half as a bus driver, truck driver, heavy equipment operator etc and then just doing reserves or being available for emergencies. You end up with a trade and the army has jewish truck drivers available during war time.
Quote
In your experience, is there an anti religious element to the army? Do you disagree that that the current setup would cause be detrimental to the type of religious life Chareidim aspire to lead?

Anti? I would say more ignorance then anything else. If you don't grow up in a religious home then it's harder to understand  the idea of Eruv for example. The lists are endless.
  The army has proven across a wide variety of frameworks that it is capable of providing the lifestyle Haredim want to lead while allowing them to serve.

Isn't this saying that Your thoughts and Your "Hard Truth" is truer than my "Religious sensibilities"?
What sets the irreligious population up as the arbiters of truth? If Chareidim believe that their Torah study protects the nation as much (or more than) service in the army, why does it really not matter what they think? UNLESS the point you mean to make is " In my value system, It doesn't really matter what you think or what offends your religious sensibilities. Either all the jews serve or none of the jews serve. That's the hard truth. "
Which is probably the point being made by @yfarbachur that until the pro-drafters understand that we are running on different values, progress on this issue is basically impossible

The belief system that I put my life on the line and someone learns in kollel doesn't work if I don't believe what he believes or I don't think it's fair. It's great that he believes that; but if I tell the army I worship Poseidon the sea God and he says I can't enlist because we desalinate water, I'll get laughed at and off to the Bakum I go.
So itt's my actual life on the line, my kids lives, and that as a rule I don't have a choice not to enlist.  Also, let's be honest - I live in a pretty haredi area and most people aren't studying all day.

There's not an actual value system here, which is I think what Israeli Haredim (and it's not really fair to include all Haredim as the same but I digress) kind of misunderstand; An agreement was made between the Hazon Ish and DBG, no one thought it would keep going, and it create a system that doesn't actually make sense but because of political expediency has been allowed to last. That political expediency has been grafted on to a belief system, which makes it almost impossible to change anyone's mind.
חס ושלום :P
This kind of response is infuriating.

To quote Churchill
'We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.'

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #137 on: June 11, 2023, 05:38:22 AM »
I am in middle of writing a long post where I deal with many of these issues.
I hope it doesn't end up like many a TR, started but not finished...

In the meantime I'll give you two snipits:

I was born in the US, and lived there until I was 22. I did not serve in any army, though I have many relatives (uncles, cousins exc...) that did (and do!). I have a great uncle that vollenteered after WWII and went on Aliya Bet as a sailor. (Family lore says that he smuggled explosives into Acco? prison when he was arrested by the British upon landing, which was later used in a breakout of the prison). I am named after Rav Shmuel Mohiliver Zatza"l, who is a relative (if's he's a great-great+ grandfather or a 3x+great-uncle i'm not sure)
I write this not as an expression of MY ideas/position on the subject, rather as a expression of the facts on the ground, as they are today, without prejustice for the "correctness" of the positions. As I write this a response to the wider Israeli mainstream position, it will appear as I am writing/siding with the chareidi position.



At the end of the day, for a large percentrage of the chareidi population, these arguments are not relevent. They have their believes, and will stick to them no matter what you say. They will not serve in an army of shmad.

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #138 on: June 11, 2023, 05:58:36 AM »
I am in middle of writing a long post where I deal with many of these issues.
I hope it doesn't end up like many a TR, started but not finished...

In the meantime I'll give you two snipits:

I was born in the US, and lived there until I was 22. I did not serve in any army, though I have many relatives (uncles, cousins exc...) that did (and do!). I have a great uncle that vollenteered after WWII and went on Aliya Bet as a sailor. (Family lore says that he smuggled explosives into Acco? prison when he was arrested by the British upon landing, which was later used in a breakout of the prison). I am named after Rav Shmuel Mohiliver Zatza"l, who is a relative (if's he's a great-great+ grandfather or a 3x+great-uncle i'm not sure)
I write this not as an expression of MY ideas/position on the subject, rather as a expression of the facts on the ground, as they are today, without prejustice for the "correctness" of the positions. As I write this a response to the wider Israeli mainstream position, it will appear as I am writing/siding with the chareidi position.



At the end of the day, for a large percentrage of the chareidi population, these arguments are not relevent. They have their believes, and will stick to them no matter what you say. They will not serve in an army of shmad.

First of all, it makes me sad that the army that literally protects them is called shmad.

But fine, they don't want to serve. I get it. With a carrot is a stick.

Goodbye to all of the ridiculous child payments and all of the subsidizing. Israel needs to adopt the workfare welfare system that Clinton signed in the 90s.

None of this will happen of course so everyone will just not like each other more.


Offline aygart

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #139 on: June 11, 2023, 08:09:12 AM »


  The army has proven across a wide variety of frameworks that it is capable of providing the lifestyle Haredim want to lead while allowing them to serve.
 
I dont think that the vast majority if any "chareidim" agree with this. There are countless anecdotes that show otherwise. If you don't understand the lifestyle then how can you be the arbiter of whether or not it conforms?
Feelings don't care about your facts