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The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 45218 times)

Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #360 on: February 22, 2024, 03:52:28 PM »

There's approximately 60k 18-25 yo men of whom let's say 80% could be combat and combat adjacent qualified removed of most of their religion fairly quickly.. The fact that they haven't come of their own volition to serve people don't  understand that charedim would have to leave the country (or die according to some ) rather than join the idf is one of the most infuriating things

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #361 on: February 22, 2024, 04:12:31 PM »
Post October 7th, the dissonance in your edit is disturbing.

The IDF has the frameworks (Nahal Haredi, Shahar etc) to allow people to serve within the requirements of their beliefs.

I don't think you realize, or most of Haredi society realize, the deep chasm that has occurred as a result of this. There's no going back.
מה שהיה הוא לא מה שיהיה

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #362 on: February 22, 2024, 04:29:17 PM »
Post October 7th, the dissonance in your edit is disturbing.

The IDF has the frameworks (Nahal Haredi, Shahar etc) to allow people to serve within the requirements of their beliefs.

I don't think you realize, or most of Haredi society realize, the deep chasm that has occurred as a result of this. There's no going back.
מה שהיה הוא לא מה שיהיה
the people I know who went to nachal either did not stay religious or became more modern. Now, you can say the type that go are those already on that path. But that is A hard sell, when it is happens consistently.

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #363 on: February 22, 2024, 04:44:41 PM »
Post October 7th, the dissonance in your edit is disturbing.

The IDF has the frameworks (Nahal Haredi, Shahar etc) to allow people to serve within the requirements of their beliefs.

I don't think you realize, or most of Haredi society realize, the deep chasm that has occurred as a result of this. There's no going back.
מה שהיה הוא לא מה שיהיה


People have brought up many issues that people have with chareidim in the army and you have not really addressed them more than to say that everything is great and amazing. The effect of your ideology is very clear in your opinions, and that is your right, but then you should look in the mirror a bit rather than complain about the supposed dissonance of others.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #364 on: February 22, 2024, 04:46:13 PM »
If IDF actually needed them, they would create a framework that actually works for them.
at this point they can fill their manpower needs elsewhere, and would prefer to keep us as a political punching bag, rather than actually mobilize

Online imayid2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #365 on: February 22, 2024, 11:05:12 PM »
Bit long but nice article by a religious soldier on the front lines:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/voice-from-the-front-3

There are those whose sons are currently serving in a combat positions in the Israeli army wondering why is it that the charedi world seems so disconnected from the stress felt by those who have close ones whose lives are endangered by the current war. By way of an answer I would like to address three relevant issues.

The first is why it is that so few charedi young men are currently engaged in this war. Obviously, this is because most charedi young men are raised to spend their youth studying Torah in yeshiva and avoid serving in the army. Since they are doing so because they believe that this is what best serves Hashem's plans for the Jewish people, it is worthwhile to elucidate why indeed this is Hashem’s plans for his people.

The second issue is to compare and contrast those who are fulfilling the Jewish mission by engaging in Torah study, relative to those who are facilitating this by their defense of the Jewish people from their tormentors.

The third issue is to discuss why it is so difficult for people to appreciate the perspective of those whose lives are different from their own, and the fact that this is generally not subject to being examined intellectually since it is largely the result of emotions.

Lastly on a slightly unrelated point, I would like to discuss why this war is different emotionally from previous wars that have taken place in my lifetime.

Regarding the first issue, there is a well known refrain that bodyguards are expected to sacrifice their own lives to protect the life of the leader whom they are tasked with protecting. In other words if an assassin is shooting at the leader whom they are protecting, they are expected to throw themselves in front of the leader and take the bullets that were meant to assassinate the person they were protecting.

Why is this so? After all, on what basis should we decide that the life of the leader is more valuable then the life of the bodyguard? The answer is that the murder of a bodyguard is a personal tragedy for himself and those who care about him, while the murder of a leader is a national tragedy. The bodyguard is expected to appreciate that his own life, while certainly valuable, is less vital to the nation as a whole then the life of the leader who represents the nation in it's entirety.

Another way of describing this distinction is the difference between a means and an end. In all circumstances the means serves the needs of the end, not the other way around.

The Jewish people are not a nation like any other nation, they are God's chosen people who are in a unique relationship with the creator. They were chosen specifically for this unique relationship, and it is precisely this relationship which gives infinite meaning to the entirety of creation. It is a large and complex subject that is well beyond what can be dealt with in a short essay such as this, but essentially that unique relationship is expressed by the Jewish people's commitment to understanding what it is that God wants from this world, and behaving accordingly.

Just like in any other relationship, the most fundamental aspect of the relationship between the Jewish people and their God, is their absolute commitment to understanding (within the limits of the abilities that God has granted to mere humans) how God chooses to be revealed within his creation. From this commitment flows the dedication that the Jewish people feel towards the study of Torah, which is the revelation of God's will and how he wants to be understood by us.

While every Jewish man is thereby required to place the study of Torah at the center of his life, in modern times the Jewish nation has developed a national expression of this ultimate value in the form of the yeshiva. While conceptually the idea of a place, and a group of people, dedicated to understanding God and his will is in no way a modern idea, the specific iteration of doing so in public institutions, and in this being the central activity of all of the young men of the generation, is Judaism's response to modernity's loss of touch with the sacred. As such the yeshiva as an institution, and it's being the central focus of the lives of the young men of this generation, is not a means to an end but is actually the expression of what makes the Jewish people God's chosen.

Secular Jews do not accept this concept, and they ultimately reject the entire concept of Judaism constituting a unique relationship between a nation and God. As such, we have ended up with a spectrum where on one end you have those who have built their society around the concept of living up to being God's chosen people. On the other end of the spectrum you have the completely secular who reject the very notion of such a relationship.

In between you have two other groups. Those that are torn between the values of the two extremes, and live their lives with one foot planted in Judaism while the other is planted in secularism. The second group are those who share the values of the charedi world, and wish to practice a Judaism that is uncompromisingly an expression of Jewish chosenness, while they disagree with some details of how this is expressed in the charedi world.

Those who belong to this last group may not organize their society in precisely the same way that the charedi world has done, but because they appreciate the values of charedi society, they don't resent the differences. They understand that it is possible for different societies to organize themselves in different ways to express the same fundamental values, and that therefore what they have in common is far more significant than whatever divides them.

In the charedi world, because the study of Torah as the expression of the Jewish people's unique relationship with God is the central organizing principle, the majority of young men will make yeshiva their vocation and avoid those distractions which prevent one from growing great in Torah wisdom. This involves avoiding both secular higher education and army service. There is also a secondary reason for avoiding these two distractions, in that although they are not inherently secular, in their modern iterations they do indeed promote secularity.

As I pointed out there is a society that accepts the charedi value of a life that revolves around Torah, but nonetheless feels that this is best expressed in other ways. This society tries to emphasize the centrality of Torah, while at the same time engaging in higher secular education to some extent, and sees service in the army as the fulfillment of a mitzvah. Just as one would not allow their dedication to Torah study to prevent them from fulfilling the mitzvah of teffilin, in their view one should also not allow the dedication Torah study to prevent one from serving in the army.

Scholars far wiser than myself have written extensively on whether or not it is in fact a mitzvah to serve in the army, and I have nothing useful to add to the extensive literature on the subject. The point I'm making though, is that these two communities, although they disagree regarding how one should best express their dedication to Judaism, share the same ultimate values and generally respect each other.

Some have asked the question, how is it fair that those who express their dedication to Judaism through service in the army, require a level of self sacrifice that those who expressed their dedication to Judaism through the yeshiva, do not. Even if this was a good question, it would not change the fact that if one understands the main element of Jewish chosenness to be expressed by the centrality of the yeshiva, then that is what God would expect of us even if it was indeed unfair. This is why I started out with the metaphor of the bodyguard and the leader. It may in fact be unfair that the nation gives precedence to the life of the leader over that of the bodyguard, but nonetheless if that is the governing principle of society, then so it must be even if it is unfair.

However in fact this is not a very good question. It is true that those who serve in the army do so with a certain level of self sacrifice, nonetheless their own security and success in their endeavors, is completely dependent on the Jewish people's unique relationship with God. And that relationship is maintained and supported by the institution of the yeshiva. So those in the army are also the beneficiaries of the relationship with God that the yeshiva facilitates. This is not to say God forbid that the yeshiva is some type of ancillary service that supports the army, on the contrary the yeshiva is what gives the army meaning, it is what gives defending the Jewish people meaning. This would be so even if the yeshiva brought no benefit to the actual endeavors of the army. However this is not the case, and in fact it is the Jewish people's dedication to God as expressed through the institution of the yeshiva, and all that that implies, that is the cause of God shining his beneficence upon the endeavors of the army.

At this time I am deliberately leaving out all of the theological arguments regarding whether or not army service implies an endorsement of secular nationalism, that is an extensive and worthwhile discussion that has engaged some of Judaism's greatest minds in the past several generations, but not relevant to the purpose of what I'm trying to express here.

Having stated all of the above, there is another aspect that needs to be kept in mind. In peacetime there is a certain amount of self sacrifice that is required to serve in the army. Even non combat soldiers live lives that are less comfortable then their lives generally are at home. Combat soldiers have the additional burden of physically challenging work, difficult hours, and often having to live in field conditions. However during times of conflict, there is real danger associated with being a combat soldier. If the combat soldier is assigned to a particularly dangerous place, obviously the element of danger increases. While the soldiers themselves generally deal pretty well with the stresses of combat, the same cannot always be said for their families. As a combat soldier myself as well as the father of a combat soldier, I am very aware of how much greater my anxiety for my son is, then any concerns i might have for myself.

While the yeshiva as an institution is the crowning achievement of the Jewish people, and the young man who dedicates himself to the study of Torah, is Judaism greatest pride, nonetheless it behooves the parents of a Torah scholar studying in yeshiva to appreciate the great anxiety that the parents of a combat soldier are going through during a time of war. The Torah expects of all of us to share in the burdens of our fellow Jews, even when there is nothing we can actually do to help we are expected to feel another's pain and anxiety.

While it is true that virtually the entire charedi community is engaging in prayer for those in danger, and certainly is concerned for the lives and well-being of those that are engaged and protecting the Jewish people, nonetheless it is the feeling of some who are suffering the great anxiety of having a son or other close loved one in combat, that the average person in the charedi community does not appreciate the extent of their suffering.

I do not know if there is a solution to this problem, since it is only the most superior human beings who have refined themselves to the extent that they can truly appreciate another person's pain when they themselves are not going through it. Still, it may be worthwhile for those both in the charedi world and the outside of it who do not have children in combat, to find ways to internalize the pain and anxiety of those who do, and to find ways to externally express this. For instance, it may be perfectly legitimate to engage in certain leisure activities or to celebrate happy events in a public manner. But during a time when others cannot engage in leisure or celebrate happy events in public because of their great anxiety, it may be worthwhile for those who can, to refrain from doing so out of empathy with those who cannot. This is obviously something that needs to be carefully weighed, because there are pros and cons in each direction, I'm just bringing it up as food for thought.

Out of goodwill and their desire to increase unity among the Jewish people, some have suggested various ways of bringing together people that live in these different societies in order for them to discuss and perhaps even bridge some of the gulf between them. Inherently this is a fine notion, but I am skeptical as to how much actual benefit it will bring about. To the vast majority of people who are honestly struggling with these issues, these are not intellectual questions that can be solved by learning new perspectives. These are emotional issues and questions of identity, which very few people are capable of examining in a rational fashion. Emotions do not lend themselves to being modulated by the introduction of intellectual ideas. Moreover, they carry with them the danger of becoming even more intense during arguments and disagreements.

There is one aspect of this war that is different than other wars that have taken place in Israel during my lifetime. A relative of mine who was a holocaust survivor told me the story of what happened to him when he arrived in Auschwitz with his mother and younger sisters. They underwent selection by Dr. Mengele, who sent the mother and sisters to the line of those who were to be murdered straightaway, while he was sent to the line of those intended for slave labor. Not wanting to be separated from his family, he tried to cross over to the other line. Seeing this, Dr. Mengele slapped him across the face and said, you'll go where I tell you.  He told me that he never forgot the sting of that slap.

At first it might seem petty to remember something like that, after all what is a slap compared to the murder of his mother and sisters? But his point was the deep humiliation of being completely dehumanized, the slap signified that he did not even have the agency to choose to die with his family. He was rendered a complete non entity. He later came to what was then Palestine, soon to become the state of Israel. He couldn't really explain it to me, but I understood from his words how the war of independence restored his sense of self. Although he was charedi, and there was much about Zionism as an ideology that he could not accept, the fact that he was given the opportunity to fight back when the Arabs tried to annihilate Israel's Jews at the time of the state's founding, went a long way in restoring his sense of self that had been robbed from him by Dr. Mengele.

I recognize a similar feeling among many charedim regarding the events of this past Simchat Torah. It's not the existential danger signified by those events were anywhere nearly as significant as the dangers that were present in the era of the six day war, the yom kippur war, or even the second intifada. But they were far more dehumanizing. The holocaust imagery was unavoidable, as was the complete helplessness of the state institutions. It doesn't take a tremendous amount of imagination to speculate as to why God might have chosen to bring such a calamity upon us, and it is certainly important that we internalize the intended lessons. But on a visceral level to many Jews, and to many charedim, this was Dr. Mengele's slap. and therefore many people who realize that it is not the state or the army that we can rely upon for security, still felt and feel the need to be directly involved in the war effort. Not because it will do anything to change the outcome, but as a form of therapy.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #366 on: February 23, 2024, 02:09:10 AM »
@yfr bachur
It's been a while since we talked about this פולמוס.
Pre October 7th (while it may not have come across on the forum), I was not happy with the situation but I was more concerned with the haredi male population going to work then anything else.
Post October 7th that's changed obviously, especially if you read the language of the new laws that require extensive lengthening of reserve duty, lengthening of duty for men back to 3 years, etc. 
....

This is deffinitly something I've been thinking about over the last few months.
I have what to say at length, but I dont really have the time to sit and write it out properly now.
For now, I'll leave you with a couple of thoughts on the current general Israeli societial situation, which are influencing my thoughts.

A week or two after Simchas Torah, I knew that the "Achdus" would be fleeting. Why? I heard in everyones statements on "ביחד ננצח" certain undertones that told me this. Undertones of after ST, for sure "נפל האסימון" and my political opponents now see things my way. Everyone is going to have אחדות in my political veiwpoints.
ST did not change anything. Leftists are still leftist, Rightists are still right... (true, certain leftists now see that peace is impossible at this point, and certain rightists now see Ben Gvir as a dangerous provocatour, but these are very small percentages).
True achdus is accepting of others rights to their values - live and let live. אין לנו ארץ אחרת means that there needs to be room for everyone.
ST did not change chareidi fundimental values. Just as it didnt change anyone elses.

I'll Bl'n address the actual issues sometime next week (if I have the time ;D but i really want to do it...)

Offline Definitions2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #367 on: February 23, 2024, 11:22:44 AM »
If IDF actually needed them, they would create a framework that actually works for them.
What type of framework?

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #368 on: February 23, 2024, 11:43:52 AM »
One that bagatz would never allow

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #369 on: February 23, 2024, 11:47:15 AM »
On a details level you can start with having an all male branch

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #370 on: February 23, 2024, 11:50:45 AM »
More importantly, the army (for good reason) will not allow anyone to interject with its chain of command and authority, one which currently has much secularising influence as well as anti religious animosity.

The army that theoretically would have charedim comfortable to join would have a chain of command that is from the top down willing to accept Torah as a governing authority input

Offline Definitions2

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #371 on: February 23, 2024, 04:19:04 PM »
More importantly, the army (for good reason) will not allow anyone to interject with its chain of command and authority, one which currently has much secularising influence as well as anti religious animosity.

The army that theoretically would have charedim comfortable to join would have a chain of command that is from the top down willing to accept Torah as a governing authority input
On a details level you can start with having an all male branch
There aren't any all male branches?
Which other things would a Torah authority change?

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Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #373 on: February 24, 2024, 09:15:49 PM »
There aren't any all male branches?
One that bagatz would never allow
Do your research

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #374 on: February 24, 2024, 09:29:29 PM »
Which other things would a Torah authority change?
beyond any individual item, everything gender to shabbos to kasherus needs to be in a chain of command that top down sees Hashem and his Torah, not as a begrudging acommodation at best and a target for 'emancipation' at worst, but as binding, authoritative and respected

Until then it will remain the nothing more than the largest and most successful challenges to individual frumkeit since the smartphone

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #375 on: February 24, 2024, 10:28:00 PM »
Incidentally in regards to Kashrus I did hear that the Kashrus at the army is worlds better than Rabanut.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #376 on: February 24, 2024, 11:54:22 PM »
More importantly, the army (for good reason) will not allow anyone to interject with its chain of command and authority, one which currently has much secularising influence as well as anti religious animosity.

The army that theoretically would have charedim comfortable to join would have a chain of command that is from the top down willing to accept Torah as a governing authority input

THis is certainly the one biggest issue. Until there is some level of representation along the chain of command that some commander can't on a whim decide that they need to do something against their values there is no way that it will have agreement. On the other hand, an army cannot function that way.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #377 on: February 25, 2024, 05:59:25 AM »
THis is certainly the one biggest issue. Until there is some level of representation along the chain of command that some commander can't on a whim decide that they need to do something against their values there is no way that it will have agreement. On the other hand, an army cannot function that way.
for a token representation of a few hundred/thousand (which is all they actually want now, for the "win") the army can't function outside it's existing framework.
If they really needed the kind of population percentage that they pretend to talk about, then you're talking entire branches, at that point you'd build the entire framework from the top down.

But: that's not the scale that they need, they can't be bothered to do that anyway, and the idealouges  at the top/at the center of the discussion would never stomach that kind of thing (rather shut down the zion experiment than create something so close to מדינת הלכה)

And if it existed bagatz would shut it down before you could blink

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #378 on: February 25, 2024, 06:02:28 AM »
Incidentally in regards to Kashrus I did hear that the Kashrus at the army is worlds better than Rabanut.
that's not the yardstick to measure against, obviously...

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #379 on: February 25, 2024, 07:12:48 AM »
@LongTimeLurker  and all other interested DDFers
I'd like us all to play a thought experiment.
Here are the ground rules:
Everyone is acting in good faith. (for example: you can't call yeshiva learning - army service)
The actions of the "kanoim" dont come into play.
We are not dealing with anti-medina who won't deal with the state.

Yair Lapid, Avigdor Leiberman and Shikma Bressler come to a meeting of a united Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah of Degel and Agudah.
They present the current emergency situation, explain the manpower shortages, the hard feelings among the general population...They say "we understand that we have no more idea what conditions the chareidim need in order to be able serve than do Galant, Eisenkot or Heleivi, we understand that its not Nachal hachareidi - but we are so determined to make it work that kavod harabanim - you have a blank check to set up an appropriate acceptable framework for chareidim to serve. We will make sure that it passes in the Knesset with no amendments at all to what you decide.

What are some of the conditions that the rabbanim may setup?
Answer as fully as possible, before looking at what others answered
Lets try to brainstorm together for a few days before we start to pick apart the suggestions....
« Last Edit: February 25, 2024, 07:58:38 AM by yfr bachur »