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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 45567 times)

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #380 on: February 25, 2024, 08:18:24 AM »
I'll start  ;)

Anything in basic training that has nothing to do with how to use a weapon, how to act as a platoon etc... is totally removed - no ideology at all, no trips to the Kosel or ammunition hill or the Golan,
no mention of zionism or the shoah or never again...
An iron-clad guarantee that the units will never be in contact with anyone of the other gender or the LATAB community (that's how you say it in Hebrew). Iron-clad means contact (as decided by rabbanim) = immediate honorable discharge of the entire chareidi unit involved. (obviously excluding times of immediate crisis - as in ST morning, not two weeks later...).
Training days are planned around a full morning seder.
Admission of a Charedi Rav appointed by the Moetzes to the General Staff - at the rank of aluf and veto power over all operations involving the unit.
Any officer who goes against the regs of the unit - as determined by the Moetzes - will be transferred immediately out of the unit.
Shabbos operations will only be done under the active supervision of the Charedi Rav of the unit.
Travel to and from base on leave will only be done in Yeshivish/Chasidish Levush - No maadim.
Any bachur determined to be falling in his shmiras torah and mitzvos will be returned to learning in yeshiva...
Kashrus - under the eida, and sheiris, and landau, and rubin... so everyone can eat with out worry.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #381 on: February 25, 2024, 10:28:56 AM »
I'll start  ;)

Anything in basic training that has nothing to do with how to use a weapon, how to act as a platoon etc... is totally removed - no ideology at all, no trips to the Kosel or ammunition hill or the Golan,
no mention of zionism or the shoah or never again...
An iron-clad guarantee that the units will never be in contact with anyone of the other gender or the LATAB community (that's how you say it in Hebrew). Iron-clad means contact (as decided by rabbanim) = immediate honorable discharge of the entire chareidi unit involved. (obviously excluding times of immediate crisis - as in ST morning, not two weeks later...).
Training days are planned around a full morning seder.
Admission of a Charedi Rav appointed by the Moetzes to the General Staff - at the rank of aluf and veto power over all operations involving the unit.
Any officer who goes against the regs of the unit - as determined by the Moetzes - will be transferred immediately out of the unit.
Shabbos operations will only be done under the active supervision of the Charedi Rav of the unit.
Travel to and from base on leave will only be done in Yeshivish/Chasidish Levush - No maadim.
Any bachur determined to be falling in his shmiras torah and mitzvos will be returned to learning in yeshiva...
Kashrus - under the eida, and sheiris, and landau, and rubin... so everyone can eat with out worry.

Ain’t happening.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #382 on: February 25, 2024, 10:44:24 AM »
Ain’t happening.

So, kind sirs, I believe that it was you who came to us, claiming that it is an emergency situation and that you needed us so very much that would be allowing us to set up a system that is appropriate for our community. From your response, I guess that it isn't such an emergency after all...

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #383 on: February 25, 2024, 11:35:22 AM »
I'll start  ;)

Anything in basic training that has nothing to do with how to use a weapon, how to act as a platoon etc... is totally removed - no ideology at all, no trips to the Kosel or ammunition hill or the Golan,
no mention of zionism or the shoah or never again...
An iron-clad guarantee that the units will never be in contact with anyone of the other gender or the LATAB community (that's how you say it in Hebrew). Iron-clad means contact (as decided by rabbanim) = immediate honorable discharge of the entire chareidi unit involved. (obviously excluding times of immediate crisis - as in ST morning, not two weeks later...).
Training days are planned around a full morning seder.
Admission of a Charedi Rav appointed by the Moetzes to the General Staff - at the rank of aluf and veto power over all operations involving the unit.
Any officer who goes against the regs of the unit - as determined by the Moetzes - will be transferred immediately out of the unit.
Shabbos operations will only be done under the active supervision of the Charedi Rav of the unit.
Travel to and from base on leave will only be done in Yeshivish/Chasidish Levush - No maadim.
Any bachur determined to be falling in his shmiras torah and mitzvos will be returned to learning in yeshiva...
Kashrus - under the eida, and sheiris, and landau, and rubin... so everyone can eat with out worry.

Defeats the purpose of the melting pot

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #384 on: February 25, 2024, 11:38:22 AM »
Defeats the purpose of the melting pot

Um, what does that have to do with the current manpower shortage?

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #385 on: February 25, 2024, 11:39:13 AM »
Um, what does that have to do with the current manpower shortage?

Yes

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #386 on: February 25, 2024, 12:32:16 PM »
So, kind sirs, I believe that it was you who came to us, claiming that it is an emergency situation and that you needed us so very much that would be allowing us to set up a system that is appropriate for our community. From your response, I guess that it isn't such an emergency after all...

Many of these requirements sound more like a summer camp than an army.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #387 on: February 25, 2024, 12:34:52 PM »
@LongTimeLurker  and all other interested DDFers
I'd like us all to play a thought experiment.
Here are the ground rules:
Everyone is acting in good faith. (for example: you can't call yeshiva learning - army service)
The actions of the "kanoim" dont come into play.
We are not dealing with anti-medina who won't deal with the state.

Yair Lapid, Avigdor Leiberman and Shikma Bressler come to a meeting of a united Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah of Degel and Agudah.
They present the current emergency situation, explain the manpower shortages, the hard feelings among the general population...They say "we understand that we have no more idea what conditions the chareidim need in order to be able serve than do Galant, Eisenkot or Heleivi, we understand that its not Nachal hachareidi - but we are so determined to make it work that kavod harabanim - you have a blank check to set up an appropriate acceptable framework for chareidim to serve. We will make sure that it passes in the Knesset with no amendments at all to what you decide.

What are some of the conditions that the rabbanim may setup?
Answer as fully as possible, before looking at what others answered
Lets try to brainstorm together for a few days before we start to pick apart the suggestions....



When I first read this, I thought, hey, this is an interesting thought experiment. I'll think about this even though I come from a non haredi background.

Then I thought about it some more later on, and I realize that this question misses the forest for the trees.

Why do you get to choose?

On shabbos I ran into a friend. I asked him how he was doing. "I didn't sleep last night", he said. What happened? I asked. "There was a knock on our door Friday night. Our son is in Gaza. No one ever knocks on our door", he replied. "I thought it was the Army coming to notify us. Thank God it was just a neighbor, but I couldn't sleep after that."

Why do you get to choose?


The army is asking to lengthen miluim service dramatically because of a lack of personnel. We're talking years of peoples lives here.

Why does a certain segment of Jewish society in Israel get to say, hey, not for us? Thanks, that looks good for the right people, but unfortunately it doesn't fit into our value structure so we'll leave the sacrifice to you guys? But thanks for thinking of us!



My neighbor hasn't been home for months. He pops in every now and then but his wife is basically alone with the kids.

My kids teachers weren't around for months because they were fighting a war. They came when they could to give hizzuk, but it wasn't much.
Why do you get to choose?


I keep going through this thread and there's some sort of weird thing that happened that some segment of Jewish society decided not to participate because they were worried about how it would affect their lives, without ever worrying about how others lives were affected.

As if a group who claim to be the torch bearers for yiddishkeit are asked to be moser nefesh for clal israel in a way that might be uncomfortable, and instead they respond with

השומר אחי אנוכי?

and to add insult to injury, their brothers are the ones who have to be literally moser nefesh for them, and when they complain about it, they get called anti-jewish!




If there had been some upswell of something like, "Hey, we want to serve. We need this hecsher, these tnayim, and we'll come en masse", then I think the feeling would be different.

But there is has been no groundswell. The davening for me is nice, but I'd much rather you learn how to fire an m16, drive a tank, become a supply person or a million other roles that would meaningfully contribute to the wellbeing of all of clal israel.

BTW, you can do all these things, still manage to have a minyan 3x a day, eat kosher food to your standards,   and probably get an hour of learning at least on a training day.

I have friends, who btw are talmidei chahamim, shomerei torah and mitzvot, who are still in miluim. No one asked them if it was ok or if there was something they needed or if the conditions met their hashkafot.

The security posture of the State of Israel is going to change drastically over the next decades, especially on the manpower front. You might not like the State as it is now, but if you live in it, there are things you  need to do.. If for nothing else then the safety of your own community.

The enemy, yemach schmam, did not come on Simchat Torah and say "yitbah al kibitzunikim" (murder the kibbutzinikim).. They didn't say "yitbah al hilonim" (murder the hilonim)..

They said, as they always do, "yitbah al yahud". (Murder the Jews)

So now we're coming to our brothers and saying, we need your help. We've lost so many soldiers, so many injured, we need you to help us protect our families and your families..

All we get is a shrug.

You can see why people are upset, and why you're missing the forest for the trees right?





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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #388 on: February 25, 2024, 12:48:33 PM »
Many of these requirements sound more like a summer camp than an army.
Possibly but they sound like very reasonable requirements to me.
I would also add older bochurim first and if still required should go down in age.

I'm not sure what aluf means practically in the army.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #389 on: February 25, 2024, 01:20:31 PM »


When I first read this, I thought, hey, this is an interesting thought experiment. I'll think about this even though I come from a non haredi background.

Then I thought about it some more later on, and I realize that this question misses the forest for the trees.

Why do you get to choose?

On shabbos I ran into a friend. I asked him how he was doing. "I didn't sleep last night", he said. What happened? I asked. "There was a knock on our door Friday night. Our son is in Gaza. No one ever knocks on our door", he replied. "I thought it was the Army coming to notify us. Thank God it was just a neighbor, but I couldn't sleep after that."

Why do you get to choose?


The army is asking to lengthen miluim service dramatically because of a lack of personnel. We're talking years of peoples lives here.

Why does a certain segment of Jewish society in Israel get to say, hey, not for us? Thanks, that looks good for the right people, but unfortunately it doesn't fit into our value structure so we'll leave the sacrifice to you guys? But thanks for thinking of us!



My neighbor hasn't been home for months. He pops in every now and then but his wife is basically alone with the kids.

My kids teachers weren't around for months because they were fighting a war. They came when they could to give hizzuk, but it wasn't much.
Why do you get to choose?


I keep going through this thread and there's some sort of weird thing that happened that some segment of Jewish society decided not to participate because they were worried about how it would affect their lives, without ever worrying about how others lives were affected.

As if a group who claim to be the torch bearers for yiddishkeit are asked to be moser nefesh for clal israel in a way that might be uncomfortable, and instead they respond with

השומר אחי אנוכי?

and to add insult to injury, their brothers are the ones who have to be literally moser nefesh for them, and when they complain about it, they get called anti-jewish!




If there had been some upswell of something like, "Hey, we want to serve. We need this hecsher, these tnayim, and we'll come en masse", then I think the feeling would be different.

But there is has been no groundswell. The davening for me is nice, but I'd much rather you learn how to fire an m16, drive a tank, become a supply person or a million other roles that would meaningfully contribute to the wellbeing of all of clal israel.

BTW, you can do all these things, still manage to have a minyan 3x a day, eat kosher food to your standards,   and probably get an hour of learning at least on a training day.

I have friends, who btw are talmidei chahamim, shomerei torah and mitzvot, who are still in miluim. No one asked them if it was ok or if there was something they needed or if the conditions met their hashkafot.

The security posture of the State of Israel is going to change drastically over the next decades, especially on the manpower front. You might not like the State as it is now, but if you live in it, there are things you  need to do.. If for nothing else then the safety of your own community.

The enemy, yemach schmam, did not come on Simchat Torah and say "yitbah al kibitzunikim" (murder the kibbutzinikim).. They didn't say "yitbah al hilonim" (murder the hilonim)..

They said, as they always do, "yitbah al yahud". (Murder the Jews)

So now we're coming to our brothers and saying, we need your help. We've lost so many soldiers, so many injured, we need you to help us protect our families and your families..

All we get is a shrug.

You can see why people are upset, and why you're missing the forest for the trees right?

I'm going to read this carefully before I respond fully.
I am really trying to be more or less impartial, and at least present (what I see as) the Charedi view in a way that may be palatable to non Charedim.
I have cousins that as of the last time I heard (less than a month ago) have not seen their husbands since ST. (They're combat medics)
I told a cousin of my wife's who lives in Kiryat Sefer, that he should tell his sister who was scared about her son who just signed up for Nachal Charedi - there are thousands of mothers across the country who have the same fears and she's not immune just bec she lives in KS. (more subtle, but that was the message).
I have a American friend who had no one in his Kollel for months as they were all on miluim...
What's damaging more than anything to productive conversation on the topic is the anti-sematic message that has been dripped into the Israeli body politic for years by politicians like Lapid and his forerunners - that Charedim are parasites, they're taking advantage, they steal YOUR money... its not fair...

The fact is this: The Dati population places hashgafic significance on army service - therefore they serve gladly and make do with sub-optimal religious conditions. This is in fact a central part of Mizrachi thought - trying to make as religious as possible of a bad situation vis a vi the non-observant.
The Charedi does not have ANY hashgafic value in the state as such nor service. If anything the Zionist enterprise is regarded as a destructive force. (We've been through why in this thread, and until the rest of society takes the time to find out and understand that its not just a "misunderstanding between Ben Gurion and the Chazon Ish" but deeply rooted honestly held bedrock beliefs and fundamental mistrust of the Zionists that is based on the entire history of the Charedi/Zionist interactions, much of this conversation will just be focused on the emotional pain of the anti charedi and not at all on the possible solutions and/or compromises.)
You're asking for ST to turn Gurrers into talmidim of Rav Kook, Vishnitzers into products of Har Hamaor, Ponevitzers into Bnei Akivaniks, and Talmidim of Rav Shmuel into Ben Gvir aficionados. It just doesn't work that way.
If you are going to ask them to shoulder the burden - that they dont place any value in - you are going to have to entice them to the table. (Some may NEVER come bec of hashgafic reasons. You can yell till the cows come home how it don't fit with your hashgafa what they do - but until you sit calmly and unemotionaly to understand - you wont)

(On a side note - when do the Charedim get to tell other parts of society that they need to change their lifestyle to ensure the security of the country? because a Charedi believes that certain deviant behaviors lead to a lack of Siyata Dishmaya and onshim from shomaiym...)

If you want to read something in english that xplains the sources and history of the chareidi hashgafos try The Empty Wagon. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiR7-6_jseEAxXMgf0HHUocDJ0QFnoECCAQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fjudaicapress.com%2Fproducts%2Fthe-empty-wagon&usg=AOvVaw0wZX353TxfHt12njBhAACk&opi=89978449.
It's a huge book that even I couldn't get through it all. Its very extreme (Eitz/Neturei Karta style), but a good source book...

« Last Edit: February 25, 2024, 01:28:32 PM by yfr bachur »

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #390 on: February 25, 2024, 01:21:24 PM »
I'm not sure what aluf means practically in the army.
Aluf is a general - one rank below the Ramatkal - the chief of staff

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #391 on: February 25, 2024, 01:25:32 PM »
wishful thinking, the story goes that a frum MK asked his secular counterpart that if we ran the army would you join?

The answer was so revealing: he said not only would I not join I would raise an army to fight yours!

They should appreciate that no one raising an opposing army (remember the Altalena)

I'll start  ;)

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #392 on: February 25, 2024, 01:33:47 PM »


When I first read this, I thought, hey, this is an interesting thought experiment. I'll think about this even though I come from a non haredi background.

Then I thought about it some more later on, and I realize that this question misses the forest for the trees.

Why do you get to choose?



Defeats the purpose of the melting pot
In short: if you're more interested in converting me to pork than you are in my manpower, that's a you problem, not a me problem

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #393 on: February 25, 2024, 01:37:46 PM »
Many of these requirements sound more like a summer camp than an army.
the specifics can be debated, I'll agree with you that some of these details are for the community to enforce rather than the army

but the overall problem with the current army as an active (sometimes intentional) challenge to frumkeit means you will never draft more than a specific segment

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #394 on: February 25, 2024, 01:42:26 PM »
to modify this list from a wishlist (perfectly legitimate negotiation point IMO) to what are probably dealbreakers/nonstarters for which majority of charedi population will probably go to jail rather than serve, see bolds:

Anything in basic training that has nothing to do with how to use a weapon, how to act as a platoon etc... is totally removed - no ideology at all, no trips to the Kosel or ammunition hill or the Golan,
no mention of zionism or the shoah or never again...
An iron-clad guarantee that the units will never be forced into (i.e. military command) in contact with anyone of the other gender or the LATAB community (that's how you say it in Hebrew). Iron-clad means contact (as decided by rabbanim) = immediate honorable discharge of the entire chareidi unit involved. (obviously excluding times of immediate crisis - as in ST morning, not two weeks later...).
Training days are planned around a full morning seder.
Admission of a Charedi Rav appointed by the Moetzes to the General Staff - at the rank of aluf and veto power over all operations involving the unit.
Any officer who goes against the regs of the unit - as determined by the Moetzes - will be transferred immediately out of the unit.
Shabbos operations will only be done under the active supervision of the Charedi Rav of the unit.
Travel to and from base on leave will only be done in Yeshivish/Chasidish Levush - No required maadim.
Any bachur determined to be falling in his shmiras torah and mitzvos will be returned to learning in yeshiva...
Kashrus - under the eida, and sheiris, and landau, and rubin... so everyone can eat with out worry.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #395 on: February 25, 2024, 01:57:13 PM »



When I first read this, I thought, hey, this is an interesting thought experiment. I'll think about this even though I come from a non haredi background.

Then I thought about it some more later on, and I realize that this question misses the forest for the trees.

Why do you get to choose?

On shabbos I ran into a friend. I asked him how he was doing. "I didn't sleep last night", he said. What happened? I asked. "There was a knock on our door Friday night. Our son is in Gaza. No one ever knocks on our door", he replied. "I thought it was the Army coming to notify us. Thank God it was just a neighbor, but I couldn't sleep after that."

Why do you get to choose?


The army is asking to lengthen miluim service dramatically because of a lack of personnel. We're talking years of peoples lives here.

Why does a certain segment of Jewish society in Israel get to say, hey, not for us? Thanks, that looks good for the right people, but unfortunately it doesn't fit into our value structure so we'll leave the sacrifice to you guys? But thanks for thinking of us!



My neighbor hasn't been home for months. He pops in every now and then but his wife is basically alone with the kids.

My kids teachers weren't around for months because they were fighting a war. They came when they could to give hizzuk, but it wasn't much.
Why do you get to choose?


I keep going through this thread and there's some sort of weird thing that happened that some segment of Jewish society decided not to participate because they were worried about how it would affect their lives, without ever worrying about how others lives were affected.

As if a group who claim to be the torch bearers for yiddishkeit are asked to be moser nefesh for clal israel in a way that might be uncomfortable, and instead they respond with

השומר אחי אנוכי?

and to add insult to injury, their brothers are the ones who have to be literally moser nefesh for them, and when they complain about it, they get called anti-jewish!




If there had been some upswell of something like, "Hey, we want to serve. We need this hecsher, these tnayim, and we'll come en masse", then I think the feeling would be different.

But there is has been no groundswell. The davening for me is nice, but I'd much rather you learn how to fire an m16, drive a tank, become a supply person or a million other roles that would meaningfully contribute to the wellbeing of all of clal israel.

BTW, you can do all these things, still manage to have a minyan 3x a day, eat kosher food to your standards,   and probably get an hour of learning at least on a training day.

I have friends, who btw are talmidei chahamim, shomerei torah and mitzvot, who are still in miluim. No one asked them if it was ok or if there was something they needed or if the conditions met their hashkafot.

The security posture of the State of Israel is going to change drastically over the next decades, especially on the manpower front. You might not like the State as it is now, but if you live in it, there are things you  need to do.. If for nothing else then the safety of your own community.

The enemy, yemach schmam, did not come on Simchat Torah and say "yitbah al kibitzunikim" (murder the kibbutzinikim).. They didn't say "yitbah al hilonim" (murder the hilonim)..

They said, as they always do, "yitbah al yahud". (Murder the Jews)

So now we're coming to our brothers and saying, we need your help. We've lost so many soldiers, so many injured, we need you to help us protect our families and your families..

All we get is a shrug.

You can see why people are upset, and why you're missing the forest for the trees right?

Does this mean that you are backing off of this statement?


The IDF has the frameworks (Nahal Haredi, Shahar etc) to allow people to serve within the requirements of their beliefs.

Until now, your argument was that the army can fit in with their beliefs. Now you're saying too bad even though it doesn't fit into your beliefs. So your whole argument before was disingenuous?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #396 on: February 25, 2024, 02:35:06 PM »
So, kind sirs, I believe that it was you who came to us, claiming that it is an emergency situation and that you needed us so very much that would be allowing us to set up a system that is appropriate for our community. From your response, I guess that it isn't such an emergency after all...

Facts don't care about your feelings.

This isn't about a sense of unity. It's about מי בראש.

There is absolutely no way they allow a non-Zionist Halachic authority to have the last say on any topic. This is the deal breaker!

And the incitement is just for that purpose, and none other. To incite against and demean the "Charedi" population.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #397 on: February 25, 2024, 03:23:28 PM »
Does this mean that you are backing off of this statement?
Until now, your argument was that the army can fit in with their beliefs. Now you're saying too bad even though it doesn't fit into your beliefs. So your whole argument before was disingenuous?

I do not think that that is a fair accusation.
It is a complicated sugya, you need to allow people to make their points.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #398 on: February 25, 2024, 03:39:12 PM »
I do not think that that is a fair accusation.
It is a complicated sugya, you need to allow people to make their points.

I fully understand the argument that it is too bad. If that is someone's opinion, then great; just understand that you can't expect the other side to just fall nicely in place. If you want them to fall in place then you need to be ready to work with them based on what THEY feel. If you want to have chareidim actually helping in the army then you will need to have a discussion on THEIR terms. That doesn't need to mean that the first proposal is the one that sticks. Having a chareidi Rov with veto power who has no understanding of the army will cause all sorts of operational issues, but maybe some middle ground can be found with, let's say, a more mizrachi rov who is sensitive to the wants of the chareidim who will work as a go between. Meanwile @LongTimeLurker basically shut down the whole conversation. That does not at all fit with the stance he was taking previously.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #399 on: February 25, 2024, 09:29:33 PM »
Those bringing up the issues are actually the MKs for whom this is their whole platform.
And therefore, there is nothing they fear more than a charedi draft actually becoming a reality. Because then they lose their last platform and no more reason to vote for them