Author Topic: Time for some proper due diligence/ independent auditing in our communities  (Read 145829 times)

Offline dealfinder11

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Offline Lurker

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  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Careful what you post here, folks. They got to OP before he could even make his point.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline Alexsei

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Jews ≠ Zionists
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Offline Alexsei

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@op Ever heard the phrase “If it's too good to be true, it probably is”?
Jews ≠ Zionists
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Offline Sam 77

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@dealfinder11 care to explain?

Offline joe1234

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Careful what you post here, folks. They got to OP before he could even make his point.
He actually made his point at the bottom, it's just that he wanted to get everyone hooked before making his point.

Offline jye

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I assume he is referring to the tension between the issur of lashon hara/ mesirah and the fact that so many frum people get burned again and again. For years molesters used/abused this sentiment to continue to operate in our communities. Baruch HaShem things are shifting in that area. Yet in other areas bad actors are rarely reported and even more rarely publicized;  it is almost impossible to find unbiased ratings and reviews of a frum product, service, or practitioner. Investors or program operators that scam frum yidden can, and often do open shop again and again, sometimes under new brands or names, and people who aren’t well connected and in on the behind the scenes rumors get scammed again and again. It is indeed a serious issue.

The fact that so many monopolies operate, especially when it comes to the kosher food industry, resulting in quality issues and predatory pricing practices that harm the frum consumer  is related to the same issue.

I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago after buying a heimishe crockpot from a frum store. The owner mysteriously warned me to lower the pot to the lowest setting over shabbos. I asked if that was to prevent the food from burning and he evasively answered “just make sure to lower it to 1 and it will be fine.”No other 8 quart models were in stock so I reluctantly purchased it. The first couple weeks we dutifully lowered it before shabbos. The following week we forgot and left it on 3, halfway between one and five.

On shabbos sat I noticed the cholent bubbling furiously to the point of burning. On Motzai Shabbos I confirmed  with an infrared thermometer that the base was operating on scathing 475 degrees no matter what setting the knob was turned to. I took it back to the store and he told me “ I warn every customer to turn it to one for shabbos or the thermostat will break!”

He begrudgingly replaced it. There is no contact info for the company. There are no ratings or reviews since it is a heimishe product. Nothing in the instructions says it can’t operate on the highest setting.  I have no idea if the unit is a fire hazard since it obviously cannot handle its own temperature output. I switched to a known brand instead.

The Dekal pesach counter covers is another example that comes to mind.
https://www.jta.org/2022/04/27/ny/a-company-thought-it-had-a-winning-passover-product-then-things-got-sticky

התורה חסה על ממונן של ישראל. I wish there was a halachicly acceptable way that would bring badly needed transparency to so many dark corners of the frum marketplace to enable people to spend their hard earned money on products and services that actually perform.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 04:28:54 PM by jye »

Offline Yehuda57

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The Dejal counter covers is another example that comes to mind.


Unless I'm unaware of what you are talking about, I'm assuming you are referring to Dekal, which was the exact opposite of what you are talking about. Everyone found out about the issues and they were widely publicized, to the point that all the ads this year speak of the new improved version that doesn't have the issue. For many, the first they heard about Dekal was the problem.

*I am in no way affiliated, related to, or even know anyone at Dekal. I've never used their product.

Offline jye

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Unless I'm unaware of what you are talking about, I'm assuming you are referring to Dekal, which was the exact opposite of what you are talking about. Everyone found out about the issues and they were widely publicized, to the point that all the ads this year speak of the new improved version that doesn't have the issue. For many, the first they heard about Dekal was the problem.

*I am in no way affiliated, related to, or even know anyone at Dekal. I've never used their product.

“In the days after Passover, dozens of people left comments on Kosher Dekal’s Instagram page complaining about the residue left by the product, which Couzens compared to the rubbery residue left after one peels a label off a jar. Criticism of the company leapt to other social media sites, including Twitter and Instagram.

Many comments were deleted by the company, which later apologized to customers through a separate post.”

Try to find genuine customer reviews of the product online. Your average frum consumer knows nothing about last years debacle other than word of mouth or perhaps social media. Your average secular product would have plenty of reviews and customer feedback and consumers would be able to make an informed decision as whether whether they want to try the product this year.

Offline Yehuda57

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“In the days after Passover, dozens of people left comments on Kosher Dekal’s Instagram page complaining about the residue left by the product, which Couzens compared to the rubbery residue left after one peels a label off a jar. Criticism of the company leapt to other social media sites, including Twitter and Instagram.

Many comments were deleted by the company, which later apologized to customers through a separate post.”

Try to find genuine customer reviews of the product online. Your average frum consumer knows nothing about last years debacle other than word of mouth or perhaps social media. Your average secular product would have plenty of reviews and customer feedback and consumers would be able to make an informed decision as whether whether they want to try the product this year.

Everyone was talking about it. At least in the Chabad world. There was absolutely no escaping it. And if you want to talk about companies playing with online reviews and deleting posts, that has absolutely nothing to do with a frum company, that is widespread. They can't delete Amazon, Google, or other platform reviews. Nothing stopped any customer from trashing them on Yelp, amazon, Google or anywhere. And they absolutely were trashed by frum "influencers" and such.

Offline jye

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Everyone was talking about it. At least in the Chabad world. There was absolutely no escaping it. And if you want to talk about companies playing with online reviews and deleting posts, that has absolutely nothing to do with a frum company, that is widespread. They can't delete Amazon, Google, or other platform reviews. Nothing stopped any customer from trashing them on Yelp, amazon, Google or anywhere. And they absolutely were trashed by frum "influencers" and such.
Do you think that if Reynolds produced silver foil that left an impossible to remove residue on everything they would be able to simply sell a “new and improved” silver foil the next year?

Offline dealfinder11

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I assume he is referring to the tension between the issur of lashon hara/ mesirah and the fact that so many frum people get burned again and again. For years molesters used/abused this sentiment to continue to operate in our communities. Baruch HaShem things are shifting in that area. Yet in other areas bad actors are rarely reported and even more rarely publicized;  it is almost impossible to find unbiased ratings and reviews of a frum product, service, or practitioner. Investors or program operators that scam frum yidden can, and often do open shop again and again, sometimes under new brands or names, and people who aren’t well connected and in on the behind the scenes rumors get scammed again and again. It is indeed a serious issue.

The fact that so many monopolies operate, especially when it comes to the kosher food industry, resulting in quality issues and predatory pricing practices that harm the frum consumer  is related to the same issue.

I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago after buying a heimishe crockpot from a frum store. The owner mysteriously warned me to lower the pot to the lowest setting over shabbos. I asked if that was to prevent the food from burning and he evasively answered “just make sure to lower it to 1 and it will be fine.”No other 8 quart models were in stock so I reluctantly purchased it. The first couple weeks we dutifully lowered it before shabbos. The following week we forgot and left it on 3, halfway between one and five.

On shabbos sat I noticed the cholent bubbling furiously to the point of burning. On Motzai Shabbos I confirmed  with an infrared thermometer that the base was operating on scathing 475 degrees no matter what setting the knob was turned to. I took it back to the store and he told me “ I warn every customer to turn it to one for shabbos or the thermostat will break!”

He begrudgingly replaced it. There is no contact info for the company. There are no ratings or reviews since it is a heimishe product. Nothing in the instructions says it can’t operate on the highest setting.  I have no idea if the unit is a fire hazard since it obviously cannot handle its own temperature output. I switched to a known brand instead.

The Dekal pesach counter covers is another example that comes to mind.
https://www.jta.org/2022/04/27/ny/a-company-thought-it-had-a-winning-passover-product-then-things-got-sticky

התורה חסה על ממונן של ישראל. I wish there was a halachicly acceptable way that would bring badly needed transparency to so many dark corners of the frum marketplace to enable people to spend their hard earned money on products and services that actually perform.

No I’m refering to massive fraud/poor investment that is coming out. I just don’t want to share any details before the full story comes out. I myself don’t know the full story, just snippets.

Offline Yehuda57

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Do you think that if Reynolds produced silver foil that left an impossible to remove residue on everything they would be able to simply sell a “new and improved” silver foil the next year?

Yes, and that has happened countless times in virtually every industry. There are product recalls all the time for seriously dangerous things, not just adhesive residue. Wells Fargo had a multi million (billion?) dollar ad campaign rebranding. Ally bank is a rebrand.

Offline Yehudaa

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Regardless of what OP's exact intention was, I take issue with the name of this thread. The name sounds like our community is one big fraud. Bh I'd like to believe that our community is for the most part a wonderful, honest community with chessed that knows no bounds, and an overwhelmning majority of honest people looking to help each other out in ways that most communities don't even come compare to.

Maybe this thread can instead be called "Time for proper due dilligence when investing in your brother in law's chavrusa's cousin's real estate syndication?" or something of the like. (No idea what the nature of OP's story is, but you get my point.)

Offline jye

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Regardless of what OP's exact intention was, I take issue with the name of this thread. The name sounds like our community is one big fraud. Bh I'd like to believe that our community is for the most part a wonderful, honest community with chessed that knows no bounds, and an overwhelmning majority of honest people looking to help each other out in ways that most communities don't even come compare to.

Maybe this thread can instead be called "Time for proper due dilligence when investing in your brother in law's chavrusa's cousin's real estate syndication?" or something of the like. (No idea what the nature of OP's story is, but you get my point.)
100% true. It’s the 1/10 of 1% that cause 99% of the problems.

Offline Yehuda57

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Do you think that if Reynolds produced silver foil that left an impossible to remove residue on everything they would be able to simply sell a “new and improved” silver foil the next year?

You're also comparing Dekal, sold to a few thousand customers with an issue that affected *some*of their SKUs on *some* types of counters, to a product that sells to millions of households and undergoes years of testing and research. And even then, even the biggest companies in the world have had recalls for deadly products. If you've followed shows like Shark Tank or The Pitch you'd have seen plenty of start-up companies that encountered similar issues.

I'm not saying it was ok that they deleted reviews. I just disagree that they are an example of LH being used as a tool to keep frum consumers uninformed. I think if you sampled the average frum person and asked them what they know about Dekal, MORE people would start with the controversy than what they actually sell.

Offline Yehuda57

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Regardless of what OP's exact intention was, I take issue with the name of this thread. The name sounds like our community is one big fraud. Bh I'd like to believe that our community is for the most part a wonderful, honest community with chessed that knows no bounds, and an overwhelmning majority of honest people looking to help each other out in ways that most communities don't even come compare to.

Maybe this thread can instead be called "Time for proper due dilligence when investing in your brother in law's chavrusa's cousin's real estate syndication?" or something of the like. (No idea what the nature of OP's story is, but you get my point.)

It is precisely the predominant goodness within "our community" that makes people susceptible to affinity fraud.

Offline Yehudaa

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It is precisely the predominant goodness within "our community" that makes people susceptible to affinity fraud.

Makes sense, but there's gotta be a way to encourage people to do proper DD without painting the whole community as a fraud.

Offline dealfinder11

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Regardless of what OP's exact intention was, I take issue with the name of this thread. The name sounds like our community is one big fraud. Bh I'd like to believe that our community is for the most part a wonderful, honest community with chessed that knows no bounds, and an overwhelmning majority of honest people looking to help each other out in ways that most communities don't even come compare to.

Maybe this thread can instead be called "Time for proper due dilligence when investing in your brother in law's chavrusa's cousin's real estate syndication?" or something of the like. (No idea what the nature of OP's story is, but you get my point.)

Fair enough. I by no means intended to paint our community in a negative light.  I should have included “investments” in the topic.

That being said, I don’t think the chessed in our community is the reason for the poor investing decisions. I personally thinks it’s more due to ignorance/incompetence. Generally I find there is a much lower standard for transparency and clarity in investments and our community by large just accepts that.

These are just my opinions, but I assure they are based on “having seen enough”.

Offline jye

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No I’m refering to massive fraud/poor investment that is coming out. I just don’t want to share any details before the full story comes out. I myself don’t know the full story, just snippets.
You mean this?
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2701839#msg2701839

It’s a lot different than investing in your brother-in-law’s real estate venture. These people knew they were doing something fraudulent by fake buying “products” that were never intended to ship just for the MCC Coding. Its sad, but the fraudsters got defrauded.

At least with Toner World and the others people thought they were genuinely purchasing a product with their credit cards, albeit in violation of the terms.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 05:22:04 PM by jye »