Time for some proper due diligence/ independent auditing in our communities

[S209]

It appears based on his LinkedIn profile that he was operating under another name, Petlin Capital/Management since July 2014. I don’t know anything else about this.

[dealmaster]

‘RANT’- it is beautiful that everyone is so concerned for others and saying Loshon Harah Ltoeles. Did anyone actually look up the relevant laws in Chofetz Chaim about when the Heter applies? For example if anyone reading this thread who already invested with this company pulls out based on the info here, anyone who contributed to convincing them (by posting the LH) transgressed multiple Issurim (don’t take my word for it, learn Chofetz Chaim, Hilchus Richilus, Perek 9, including Be’er Mayim Chaim). Perhaps now during the 3 weeks (see CC in the Hakdama) it is especially important to bear in mind what horrible risks you run by speaking LH, in any event. Also important is to remember that the CC considers ruining someone’s Parnasa as Yorad Lchayov Mamish, so we are dealing with Dinei Nifashos. ‘END RANT’

[imayid2]

‘RANT’- it is beautiful that everyone is so concerned for others and saying Loshon Harah Ltoeles. Did anyone actually look up the relevant laws in Chofetz Chaim about when the Heter applies? For example if anyone reading this thread who already invested with this company pulls out based on the info here, anyone who contributed to convincing them (by posting the LH) transgressed multiple Issurim (don’t take my word for it, learn Chofetz Chaim, Hilchus Richilus, Perek 9, including Be’er Mayim Chaim). Perhaps now during the 3 weeks (see CC in the Hakdama) it is especially important to bear in mind what horrible risks you run by speaking LH, in any event. ‘END RANT’

If the LH was said ltoeles, why would it be a transgression if someone pulled out based on the info? Seems to be a problem only if you know you’re dealing with someone he will for sure do something שלא כדין.

[dealmaster]

If the LH was said ltoeles, why would it be a transgression if someone pulled out based on the info?

one of the Tnoim of the Heter Toeles is “aynoy nifsad yoser mayhadin” which the CC (in the Mareh Malcom above), clarifies means “ilu heyid alov bibeis din”. So far I didn’t see anything admissible as Aidus in BD (I did not see every post, so I can’t say for certain, but based on what I’ve seen this is the case)

[imayid2]

one of the Tnoim of the Heter Toeles is “aynoy nifsad yoser mayhadin” which the CC (in the Mareh Malcom above), clarifies means “ilu heyid alov bibeis din”. So far I didn’t see anything admissible as Aidus in BD (I did not see every post, so I can’t say for certain, but based on what I’ve seen this is the case)

That would be an issur of the mekabel, not the mesaper. Unless he knows the mekabel will act on it שלא כדין.

[Fish Tank]

‘RANT’- it is beautiful that everyone is so concerned for others and saying Loshon Harah Ltoeles. Did anyone actually look up the relevant laws in Chofetz Chaim about when the Heter applies? For example if anyone reading this thread who already invested with this company pulls out based on the info here, anyone who contributed to convincing them (by posting the LH) transgressed multiple Issurim (don’t take my word for it, learn Chofetz Chaim, Hilchus Richilus, Perek 9, including Be’er Mayim Chaim). Perhaps now during the 3 weeks (see CC in the Hakdama) it is especially important to bear in mind what horrible risks you run by speaking LH, in any event. Also important is to remember that the CC considers ruining someone’s Parnasa as Yorad Lchayov Mamish, so we are dealing with Dinei Nifashos. ‘END RANT’

Now that you turned this thread into a halachah debate  - Is it LH if one points out that a bunch of publicly stated facts aren't accurate?

[dealmaster]

That would be an issur of the mekabel, not the mesaper. Unless he knows the mekabel will act on it שלא כדין.

mistake, the due diligence is on the Missaper, Eynoy Muter Ella Im Kain Yodeah Brady Shelo Yasseh…. Im not in front of the Sefer now so I don’t know if I quoted it perfectly, but that is certainly very close

[liosac]

‘RANT’- it is beautiful that everyone is so concerned for others and saying Loshon Harah Ltoeles. Did anyone actually look up the relevant laws in Chofetz Chaim about when the Heter applies? For example if anyone reading this thread who already invested with this company pulls out based on the info here, anyone who contributed to convincing them (by posting the LH) transgressed multiple Issurim (don’t take my word for it, learn Chofetz Chaim, Hilchus Richilus, Perek 9, including Be’er Mayim Chaim). Perhaps now during the 3 weeks (see CC in the Hakdama) it is especially important to bear in mind what horrible risks you run by speaking LH, in any event. Also important is to remember that the CC considers ruining someone’s Parnasa as Yorad Lchayov Mamish, so we are dealing with Dinei Nifashos. ‘END RANT’

Wrong, wrong , and wrong. Sorry, someone saturating frum media with ads almost promising 16% returns based on unverified self reported numbers when numbers he himself put out call that number into question, as well as appearing to not divulge/ take into account that he suffers heavy losses thisbyear as the market gained, and so far is not explaining how two different return numbers for the same year were put out on two different statements, is textbook litoeles for all potential frum people targeted by the media outreach to be choshesh. What are being pointed out are readily available facts , not innuendo, that until they are clearly and readily addressed are significant flags for any hedge fund and need to be taken into account by anyone invested, or considering putting his money in.

[dealmaster]

Now that you turned this thread into a halachah debate  - Is it LH if one points out that a bunch of publicly stated facts aren't accurate?

I am not a Rabbi, but as I understand unless the inaccuracy are Yodeh Lakol (which would negate tremendously the application of Toeles in that case as you are assuming everyone knows) it is certainly LH. If it is Yodah Lakol you run into a Machlokes Rishonim that the CC doesn’t want to Paskin on

[dealmaster]

Wrong, wrong , and wrong. Sorry, someone saturating frum media with ads almost promising 16% returns based on unverified self reported numbers when numbers he himself put out call that number into question, as well as appearing to not divulge/ take into account that he suffers heavy losses thisbyear as the market gained, and so far is not explaining how two different return numbers for the same year were put out on two different statements, is textbook litoeles for all potential frum people targeted by the media outreach to be choshesh. What are being pointed out are readily available facts that are significant flags for any hedge fund and need to be taken into account by anyone considering putting his money in.

I see you didn’t bother to look up my Mareh Makom before you jumped to (wrong) conclusions. I was not talking about POTENTIAL clients (although in that regard an argument can be had as too whether or not posting on a public forum which certainly reaches people who have no Toeles is Muter) I was talking about IF a CURRENT client pulls out…. had you checked the MM and actually semi carefully read my post you would have understood that. PS your modification of your post did nothing to address what I just said

[Fish Tank]

I am not a Rabbi, but as I understand unless the inaccuracy are Yodeh Lakol (which would negate tremendously the application of Toeles in that case as you are assuming everyone knows) it is certainly LH. If it is Yodah Lakol you run into a Machlokes Rishonim that the CC doesn’t want to Paskin on

What?
I think you should ask Rabbi before coming on here and ranting. I have a feeling you're misapplying the LH concepts.

[dealmaster]

What?
I think you should ask Rabbi before coming on here and ranting. I have a feeling you're misapplying the LH concepts.

I honestly can’t tell if you are being serious or sarcastic

[imayid2]

mistake, the due diligence is on the Missaper, Eynoy Muter Ella Im Kain Yodeah Brady Shelo Yasseh…. Im not in front of the Sefer now so I don’t know if I quoted it perfectly, but that is certainly very close

He’s musapek in באר מים חיים, if you don’t know for certain he’ll do שלא כדין, but are mesupak.
However, he’s talking about being mazik someone שלא כדין. I don’t see how that applies to withdrawing money which (I presume?) you have every right to withdraw on a whim.

[liosac]

Additionally the LinkedIn posts consisting of almost every point raised here were directly addressed to HIM AND HIS AGENT by professionals in the field asking THEM to clarify the questions and inconsistencies in the publicly available data vs the pitch being made. He engaged with them for a little while but as the questions and issues progressed he went silent and eventually deleted the whole linked in post.

[Yehuda57]

We're coming off of a spate of losses in frum communities totaling tens of millions, perhaps even in the hundreds, because of affinity fraud, and then a group comes and extremely publicly tries to take advantage of "influencer culture", almost a textbook example of affinity fraud. Rabbonim have come out quite publicly of late to say not only is calling out potential schemes allowed, but it is a mitzvah to do so.

As if current clients taking out their funds because skeptical comments on the internet are making them do better due diligence is a bad thing?!

[EliJelly]

We're coming off of a spate of losses in frum communities totaling tens of millions, perhaps even in the hundreds, because of affinity fraud, and then a group comes and extremely publicly tries to take advantage of "influencer culture", almost a textbook example of affinity fraud. Rabbonim have come out quite publicly of late to say not only is calling out potential schemes allowed, but it is a mitzvah to do so.

As if current clients taking out their funds because skeptical comments on the internet are making them do better due diligence is a bad thing?!

Frankly this is the worst timing to try get people investing in another inflated return rate thing.

[avromie7]

He’s musapek in באר מים חיים, if you don’t know for certain he’ll do שלא כדין, but are mesupak.
However, he’s talking about being mazik someone שלא כדין. I don’t see how that applies to withdrawing money which (I presume?) you have every right to withdraw on a whim.

I'm not commenting on its application here, but causing someone to lose business is definitely mazik. The shelo k'din refers to the speaker, not the one who stops patronizing the business. If the LH is mazik and the speaker did not have a right to cause that hezek, it would be shelo k'din even if the person "has every right to withdraw on a whim".

[Joel]

Seems like a WA group was created to help investigate Blackbird,. Spinner is on the group and is mocking everyone who asks anything..
https://chat.whatsapp.com/Fp8xdpSY48586f2Qc8W61X

[Euclid]

[yfr bachur]

I'm not commenting on its application here, but causing someone to lose business is definitely mazik. The shelo k'din refers to the speaker, not the one who stops patronizing the business. If the LH is mazik and the speaker did not have a right to cause that hezek, it would be shelo k'din even if the person "has every right to withdraw on a whim".

I'm really not sure why you're so sure that LH is apliciable to s/o just telling the other person where to look for the publicly available information, and explaining its meaning.