Time for some proper due diligence/ independent auditing in our communities

[aygart]

Close to 90% of Madoff money was recovered.

[Baruch]

Close to 90% of Madoff money was recovered.

Wow! Interesting. pls post source

[aygart]

Wow! Interesting. pls post source

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-total-distribution-over-4-billion-victims-madoff-ponzi-scheme

[EliJelly]

Close to 90% of Madoff money was recovered.

Yup, not everyone knows that. What everyone talks here is that over $100M was lost or close to $100M. If the money gets tracked down it will be significantly less. I wonder what the Choshan Mishpat mumchim have to say on going after such money.

[yuneeq]

The fact that so many monopolies operate, especially when it comes to the kosher food industry, resulting in quality issues and predatory pricing practices that harm the frum consumer  is related to the same issue.

I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago after buying a heimishe crockpot from a frum store. The owner mysteriously warned me to lower the pot to the lowest setting over shabbos. I asked if that was to prevent the food from burning and he evasively answered “just make sure to lower it to 1 and it will be fine.”No other 8 quart models were in stock so I reluctantly purchased it. The first couple weeks we dutifully lowered it before shabbos. The following week we forgot and left it on 3, halfway between one and five.

On shabbos sat I noticed the cholent bubbling furiously to the point of burning. On Motzai Shabbos I confirmed  with an infrared thermometer that the base was operating on scathing 475 degrees no matter what setting the knob was turned to. I took it back to the store and he told me “ I warn every customer to turn it to one for shabbos or the thermostat will break!”

He begrudgingly replaced it. There is no contact info for the company. There are no ratings or reviews since it is a heimishe product. Nothing in the instructions says it can’t operate on the highest setting.  I have no idea if the unit is a fire hazard since it obviously cannot handle its own temperature output. I switched to a known brand instead.

Are you talking about the ProChef? Been having similar burning issues with it, and now after looking it up online the reviews are the same. Time for a new slow cooker.

[CountValentine]

Close to 90% of Madoff money was recovered.

Numbers for a narrative?

Look at this article and then the next one.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-total-distribution-over-4-billion-victims-madoff-ponzi-scheme

https://archive.ph/4bsWd

[jye]

Are you talking about the ProChef? Been having similar burning issues with it, and now after looking it up online the reviews are the same. Time for a new slow cooker.

No, a newish name.

[yuneeq]

Numbers for a narrative?

Look at this article and then the next one.https://archive.ph/4bsWd

Interesting. After looking it up, it’s complicated. @aygarts link was referring to just a subset of the losses suffered due to Madoff. However - it seems like overall there was originally $19.5m in lost principal and $18.6m recovered/paid back, or more than 95%.

[AsherO]

Interesting. After looking it up, it’s complicated. @aygarts link was referring to just a subset of the losses suffered due to Madoff. However - it seems like overall there was originally $19.5m in lost principal and $18.6m recovered/paid back, or more than 95%.

Which is quite impressive but keep in mind that a lot of it was clawed back from investors who thought they gained and cashed out, so it was damaging to them in order to return principal to other investors. I feel like the Bloomberg article really contextualizes the figures states in the DoJ’s press release.

[CountValentine]

However - it seems like overall there was originally $19.5m in lost principal and $18.6m recovered/paid back, or more than 95%.

Again, numbers to support a narrative.

[yuneeq]

Which is quite impressive but keep in mind that a lot of it was clawed back from investors who thought they gained and cashed out, so it was damaging to them in order to return principal to other investors. I feel like the Bloomberg article really contextualizes the figures states in the DoJ’s press release.

Agreed -  didn’t want to mention it because it’s hard to call the $64b in statement value as the true losses, but certainly more than $19.5b in losses was felt. For a Ponzi scheme the recovery of principal percentage is impressive.

Again, numbers to support a narrative.

I have no idea what you are referring to or who you think I’m paid off by. Literally just stating the total funds recovered against principal invested. What numbers do you think are relevant in Madoff case?

[CountValentine]

I have no idea what you are referring to or who you think I’m paid off by. Literally just stating the total funds recovered against principal invested. What numbers do you think are relevant in Madoff case?

I am not saying you or @aygart . Those presenting the numbers want the narrative to be they recovered 80, 85, 90, 95% or maybe the final figure will be 110%. 

[tov hashem]

Heard that hatzulah was needed for some investor’s

[Dan]

Close to 90% of Madoff money was recovered.

Madoff: The monster of wall street.

Last episode demonstrates how this is mostly a bubbe maisah and how dirty the recovery tactics and recovery lawyer were.

[dm123]

Last episode demonstrates how this is mostly a bubbe maisah and how dirty the recovery tactics and recovery lawyer were.

What's a "bubbe maiseh"? Are you referring to the discussion earlier on this thread about whether we're looking at principal lost vs total from (unknown) fraudulent investment that were clawed back?

It’s complicated. @aygarts link was referring to just a subset of the losses suffered due to Madoff. However - it seems like overall there was originally $19.5m in lost principal and $18.6m recovered/paid back, or more than 95%.

Which is quite impressive but keep in mind that a lot of it was clawed back from investors who thought they gained and cashed out, so it was damaging to them in order to return principal to other investors. I feel like the Bloomberg article really contextualizes the figures states in the DoJ’s press release.

[David61]

Close to 90% of Madoff money was recovered.

In my view, this is a mischaracterization.

They recovered about 90% of the original principle value (in nominal terms) but none of the gains (or time value of money, or erosion from inflation) that accrued over 40 years. This amounts to about 30% of the reported fund balance

Reported fund balances were 65B, (of which 19 bil. was principle. and 46 bil of gains --earned since 1970s). They recovered and paid 90% of the principal by 2008. 

[AsherO]

In my view, this is a mischaracterization.

They recovered about 90% of the original principle value (in nominal terms) but none of the gains (or time value of money, or erosion from inflation) that accrued over 40 years. This amounts to about 30% of the reported fund balance

Reported fund balances were 65B, (of which 19 bil. was principle. and 46 bil of gains --earned since 1970s). They recovered and paid 90% of the principal by 2008. 

Considering it’s a Ponzi scheme, do reported fund balances even mean anything? What’s more interesting is how much beyond principal was withdrawn over that time period, which wouldn’t be reflected in balances and is the source of much of the “recovered” funds.

[chevron]

Right, with Madoff if you got back 9 of 10 million you initially invested 30 years prior, you lost even basic interest

Jews demand 20% return on investments. This means that anybody who needs some money is going to have to pay out more and that people are always on the lookout for crazy returns

[AsherO]

Right, with Madoff if you got back 9 of 10 million you initially invested 30 years prior, you lost even basic interest

Jews demand 20% return on investments. This means that anybody who needs some money is going to have to pay out more and that people are always on the lookout for crazy returns

One of the reasons they’ll keep getting scammed

[knowitall]

One of the reasons they’ll keep getting scammed

Exactly!
20% annual returns don't exist unless you take on significant risk/leverage.

Our community doesn't get what risk means.

I agree with OP, we have terrible "investing" habits. We often do little to no DD, especially on RE deals.

Though now that many are underwater, I am hopeful that some people will learn their lesson.